Windows Weekly Episode 817 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thurrott is here. Richard Campbell's here, and I'm here. I'm gonna show you Windows 11, running on a Mac. Now official Paul will give us his commentary, as Will Richard. We'll also talk about more bad news for PC makers and Bing ai, why people were little, I think over the top about Bing ai, that and a whole lot more. Plus, Richard gives us a tour of Barley <laugh>. It's all coming up next on Windows Wakeling podcasts you love from people you trust.

TWiT Intro (00:00:35):
This.

Leo Laporte (00:00:43):
This is Windows Weekly with Paul Throt and Richard Campbell. Episode 817 Recorded Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023. The moment of confusion. Windows Weekly is brought to you by aci. Learning Tech is one industry where opportunities outpace growth, especially in cybersecurity. One third of information security jobs require a cybersecurity certification. Where do you get one? Well, to maintain your competitive edge across audit it and cybersecurity readiness, you just gotta go to go dot aci learning.com/twi. Thanks for listening to this show. As an ad supported network, we are always looking for new partners with products and services that will benefit our qualified audience. Are you ready to grow your business? Reach out to advertise@twit.tv and launch your campaign. Now. It's time for Windows Weekly, the show where you cover the latest news from Microsoft with Pauly Throt, little Polly walnuts from a beautiful Laura Mcce pa. He is, of course, at throt.com on the Innerwebs. And and he is also a published author, <laugh> On what, how many books? Now? I lost count, but it's close to 30. Many, many, many books. His latest field guided Windows 11. Is it Lean pub Lead Pub dot. Latest. Latest. My latest isn't public yet, but that's the, oh, and there's a new one. It's coming, coming, it's coming soon. That can't be called your latest until you've got a cover. Fine, fine. <Laugh>, I have a cover for our our newest show. Are you ready? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Very excited. Dan did this for me. Where is it?

Leo Laporte (00:02:26):
Where is it? Gotta show ya. In our

Leo Laporte (00:02:31):
In our, in our twit forums. Oh, I don't have, do do the thing I need. The thing I need. I have. And I have. Here it is. Are you ready for our newest show, ladies, gentlemen, on Mac Action this week in ai. There you go. I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that. He is one of the co-host an AI construct. So well of our staff members said, you know, we should just have an ai, write it, produce it, voice it, and and push it. And we then we don't have to do anything <laugh>. Right?

Paul Thurrott (00:03:07):
I like it.

Leo Laporte (00:03:08):
It's just an automatic program. That's Richard Campbell on the right. He is a true Scotsman <laugh> and also joins us from beautiful k Whitland in the great white North. Hello, Richard?

Rich Campbell (00:03:22):
Hello. Hello. I have published exactly two books. One, they were both on visual basic anterior architecture, because I feel after that, if you continue to make books, you aren't learning

Leo Laporte (00:03:32):
<Laugh>. That's exactly

Paul Thurrott (00:03:34):
Right.

Leo Laporte (00:03:35):
That's, you nailed it. <Laugh>. That's good. It took me 13. Paul hasn't learned that lesson.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:41):
I've learned other lessons. They're wrong lessons.

Leo Laporte (00:03:44):
Incorrect lessons entirely. Yeah. So Microsoft made it official. We, I have many questions, but Microsoft made it official that you can Is it is Windows on arm out of beta now?

Paul Thurrott (00:03:59):
Whoa. It's, well, it's been out of beta for

Leo Laporte (00:04:02):
Four years.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:04):
Yeah, but I can, so the way this beta is that, yeah. So Apple, when they switched the Apple silicon, a architecture, this broke all of the virtualization solutions, right? They also got rid of bootcamp. 

Leo Laporte (00:04:15):
Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:17):
So parallels, you know, fusion appeared to, you know, quickly actually, and the problem is, you, well, you technically probably could, but they don't emulate Intel based operating systems like X 86 for performance reasons, right? So they can only emulate or virtualize arm-based system. So the only way to acquire an arm based version of Windows 10 now 11, was with a new computer. Right? So the only way to get that thing on Parallels or Fusion on a Mac was to download the Windows inside a preview version, which meant you were on a perpetual upgrade cycle. You know, you'd have to keep up upgrading

Leo Laporte (00:04:58):
It. And when I did it, and that was practically at the beginning of the apple Silicon Max, I think.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:04):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:05:05):
Windows on Arm was kind of very much a work in progress. I mean, I couldn't even run some of the built-in accessory apps that Microsoft

Paul Thurrott (00:05:11):
Ships. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Well so I mean we've had some issues on the hardware side for sure with Arm, but Windows on Arm itself, from a software standpoint has actually matured pretty, pretty nicely over the

Leo Laporte (00:05:24):
Past several. Yeah. So that was my reaction. I installed it yeah, as soon as it was official. Yep. You have to use

Paul Thurrott (00:05:29):
Can Run

Leo Laporte (00:05:30):
Parallels, which is one of several options on the Mac. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There's also VMware's Fusion, and there's I presume Virtual Box and other, there's key and stuff. But problem I, so I already had a subscription to Parallels. When you you wanna see 'em, you wanna see me do it?

Paul Thurrott (00:05:45):
Yeah. I mean, one of the nice things about Parallels is that they offer kind of an automated wizard for this process.

Leo Laporte (00:05:50):
They sure do. I was really surprised.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:52):
Yeah. So what you're really, the real, the the big thing that's changed is that Microsoft now officially supports this, right? So you can use a Windows license and apply it toward Windows and Arm, right?

Leo Laporte (00:06:05):
So

Paul Thurrott (00:06:05):
I should say with some caveats, right? So one of those caveats is it only works with pro or enterprise. So you actually have to spend, I have pro,

Leo Laporte (00:06:12):
It was 200 bucks,

Paul Thurrott (00:06:13):
200 bucks,

Leo Laporte (00:06:14):
200 smacks. Could I have used somebody el my, you know, somebody else's.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:18):
Yeah, I believe so. This is something I want to test. My my Mac is in a storage container right now, <laugh>, but mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But yes, I will be testing that soon. I believe that you could just do it. Don't buy it. And then apply your key and it should work. It's just another version of Windows,

Leo Laporte (00:06:32):
So Yeah. I blew It doesn't work. Fine. Yeah. Oh, well

Paul Thurrott (00:06:35):
The issue by the way, still, I just, just real quick is and this is an issue for people who have Microsoft or you know, Qualcomm hardware is you still can't go somewhere on the web to, you know, windows.com or whatever and download an arm based version Windows. That's still not a thing for some reason. At least not officially. Hmm. and I don't know, I would like to see that happen. Cuz one of the problems I have is I have an arm machine that's on the insider preview and now it can't get out. There's no way to blow it away and just go back to stable.

Leo Laporte (00:07:06):
So I am now playing, oops.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:09):
Microsoft. Yeah, so

Leo Laporte (00:07:10):
Solitaire, which was in the old days, that was, I don't want to be an Xbox Life. In the old days, this was kind of your test Sure. Was How Fast is deal the cards, right? Oh, I need a new game. Let's do a new one here. Oh, it's not dealing them. I used to deal 'em. Oh, well you know what? Like,

Paul Thurrott (00:07:29):
Well, by the way, this is, so this might be one of the things that's problematic on Arm, cuz I, I mentioned one caveat <laugh>. There you

Leo Laporte (00:07:36):
Go.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:37):
The other one is that there's some issues with graphical apps, especially games. Yes. This looks good.

Leo Laporte (00:07:42):
I don't have a problem. That's fine. There's no direct X 12, there's no open gl, there's no Windows subsystem for Linux. There's no, there's a lot of nos.

Paul Thurrott (00:07:50):
Well, you don't have, like, virtualization within Virtualization doesn't work. Right. So that requires virtualization. W S A W S L Windows Sandbox

Leo Laporte (00:08:00):
This seems pretty snappy though. And this is only using eight gigs of ram, which is the default that it shows. So

Paul Thurrott (00:08:06):
Here's the, this is, that's a terrible thing to say out loud and to even contemplate, but there's been a myth over many years that, you know, the best way to run Windows is on a Mac. You know, like, that's all, that's always been nonsense. Yeah. I will say the best way to run Windows and Arm today actually is on a Mac. Right. and that's, it's, it, it's bizarre that a virtualized version of Windows 11 on arm runs better than Windows 11 on Arm does on Snapdragon hardware. Yeah. But that's, that's a fact.

Rich Campbell (00:08:32):
Is that just because the M one's that good

Paul Thurrott (00:08:35):
<Laugh>? Honestly, I have no idea why you're saying

Leo Laporte (00:08:37):
That with tongue firmly planted in cheek Mr. Campbell. No,

Rich Campbell (00:08:41):
I'm, I'm pretty much of the camp that the best silicone made right now. The M one and M two chips.

Leo Laporte (00:08:45):
Yeah. I'm very happy with them. I mean, Intel has a faster I nine, you know Sure. Yeah. If you willing to light the house, you know, and eat the

Rich Campbell (00:08:54):
House. It Yeah. And, and their, their chip architecture's got much longer pipelines. Right. They have two sets of pipelines, a short one, a shorter one, and a longer one. Like it's way more complicated instruction set Right. In, in terms of giving for a given processing use. You, you do a lot more every cycle of an Intel chip thing you do in any of the arm chips. Right. Speaking

Paul Thurrott (00:09:16):
Of which I, maybe one of you guys knows something about this that I don't, I just I had a meeting recently that AMD attended and somebody asked, am the guy, there're actually several guys from AM md but they asked them, they said, Hey, are you guys ever gonna do what Intel is doing and do kind of a big, not a big, well a former performance efficiency core type architecture. And the guy, guy who answered that question was a senior engineer of some kind, laughed and said, no, why would we ever do that? <Laugh> <laugh>. And well said, well, Intel's doing it. He says, yeah, well we have, we have our cores adapt so our cores can all be big or little or they can be faster efficient. We, he said, we don't have to do that. And he says, when you do do that, what Intel is doing, you introduce all these EF inefficiencies. And I'd have to look at my notes now cause I don't remember exactly what he said they were, but he's, he said that it's gonna take them a few generations to kind of get this Right. Which is interesting cuz I've kind of made that argument, you know, knowing nothing about it. But I kind of assumed like AMD would have to at some point do this too. But he, yeah. The way he described it was No, no,

Rich Campbell (00:10:20):
No, no. It, the long pipeline is a trap that Intel can't get out of. Yeah. And and that's why they did the short pipeline processor code to see how many workloads they could get over to there. Interesting. The problem is that now you have a pre-processor that looks, it says, could this run on a short pipeline? Cuz if it gets it wrong, oh it'll get a fault and it'd have to re-execute on the long pipeline is, by the way, that's punishment, meltdown inspector come from. Yeah. Is these long pipelines? So this is punishment for making processors for 40 years. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:49):
You've been really successful. Let's punish them legacy.

Rich Campbell (00:10:52):
Yeah. Yeah. But if you look at what they were trying to do with titanium, they were tried to ditched a long pipeline. Oh, interesting. Because they've always tried to ditch the long pipeline. Yep. And nobody bought it. And we're still with X 86 1

Paul Thurrott (00:11:03):
Bought it cuz the Itanium was the size of a

Rich Campbell (00:11:05):
Volkswagen. Well, it also is a little warm and Well, it didn't, didn't run anything. There were a lot of problems,

Paul Thurrott (00:11:11):
But it was big and heavy and slow and it

Rich Campbell (00:11:12):
Didn't run anything. But No, that's why,

Paul Thurrott (00:11:13):
What's it successful Sisk is

Rich Campbell (00:11:15):
At this point, is sis seen as a kind of dead end and risk is the future. Well, yeah, but that likely was always true. The only case where this really made a difference, and this is me, you know, serving as an IT consultant Yeah. Buying a hardware for SQL Server and to get the same IOPS out of an, an Intel pro, an intel server took fewer processors than the AM MD because a concurrent a concurrency. Yeah. And the AM MD had more processes available, so we got good yield on it and the machines were less expensive. Yeah. But the licenses cost more because Oh, at that time, Microsoft charged per processor.

Leo Laporte (00:11:53):
That's right.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:55):
That's

Leo Laporte (00:11:56):
Right. So anyway, as, as you've been talking and people who are watching the video know I've been running just Yeah. Messing around. It, I don't know if it seems like it runs not Oh, like full speed. Like normally in eight gigs of ram you know, and the Mac is still running, you know, the Mac hasn't gone away.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:15):
You could do coherence mode and just run Coherence

Leo Laporte (00:12:17):
Individual. Cool. Yeah. Let, lemme show you that. I'll, if I go out of

Paul Thurrott (00:12:21):
Yeah, it's

Leo Laporte (00:12:21):
Actually really cool. Full screen. Let me launch our favorite program. Clip Champ

Paul Thurrott (00:12:26):
<Laugh>. Well, oh, chip

Leo Laporte (00:12:29):
<Laugh>. What? Well I only mentioned that because it has no corresponding app on, on Mac.

Paul Thurrott (00:12:36):
Well, I'm moving.

Leo Laporte (00:12:37):
Yeah, no, I mean, but there's no Clip Champ on Mac

Paul Thurrott (00:12:40):
<Laugh>. Oh my gosh. Well, actually there is Leo, that's the web app, so you can Oh

Leo Laporte (00:12:42):
Yeah. Okay. Nevermind. But anyway, I'm gonna run Clip Champ. Yeah. and what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna, I'm running in a window Yeah. On the Mac. So the Mac is still here. Look, I can even run Eex and Clip Champ at the same time. Is that awesome? Or what

Paul Thurrott (00:12:57):
Kind of insane person would do that?

Leo Laporte (00:12:59):
<Laugh>. So well, and, and actually there is a point to that because you can't use WSL on on the virtualization of Windows. So if I'm wanna run Eex, it's, it's gonna be on my Mac. I have to say I'm, you know, <laugh>, this is, this is pretty good. It's, it's supporting things like the Mac. You can see this Mac snap, which is snapping it to various,

Paul Thurrott (00:13:22):
I was gonna say, what is the snapping you're using this second,

Leo Laporte (00:13:24):
Third party? That's, that's well, apple has some of that, but I'm actually using something I think called Rectangle.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:30):
Yeah, I was gonna say, that's not Apple.

Leo Laporte (00:13:31):
That's, yeah. Well, apple has some snapping. It does some snapping. Anyway, it's yeah, I mean, this is coherent. So what it means is I'm running as a, in a window. Yeah. I'm running a Windows app.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:43):
Yeah, no, yeah. You don't have to look at the Windows desktop. And, and by the way, I think for most people, that's what they would want. They're on a Mac, that's whatever choice they made. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they, but they need this one thing, this

Leo Laporte (00:13:52):
One thing. That's what it's for.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:54):
Whatever. It might, it's probably not Clip Champ by the way, but, you know, whatever that one thing is

Leo Laporte (00:13:57):
<Laugh>, it's the

Paul Thurrott (00:13:57):
One thing

Leo Laporte (00:13:58):
We don't need, probably, but Okay. Probably a line of

Paul Thurrott (00:14:00):
Business app from work or something. Yeah, yeah. Whatever.

Leo Laporte (00:14:02):
Yeah. The mls app or whatever that's still is running only on Windows 95 or whatever. It's <laugh>. Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I have to say, and that, so this is, and then if I want to go, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm running in parallels and if I want to go back to a full screen of Windows I can, but that's pretty cool.

Paul Thurrott (00:14:21):
Yeah, it's nice. I

Leo Laporte (00:14:22):
Have to say it works quite well. I'm, I'm very,

Paul Thurrott (00:14:24):
It has honestly, I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:14:26):
That's, well look, I even have the start menu <laugh>. That's a little weird. Yeah. Cuz I'm in coherence mode. I

Paul Thurrott (00:14:33):
Can, you can mix and match, like, you could put shortcuts to Windows apps on your dock.

Leo Laporte (00:14:37):
Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

Paul Thurrott (00:14:38):
Never even look at this thing.

Leo Laporte (00:14:39):
Isn't that interesting?

Paul Thurrott (00:14:41):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:14:41):
Wow. And it, and it run, as I said, it runs pretty well. I still have the Apple stuff

Paul Thurrott (00:14:46):
Here. And now you, you're saying this system only has eight gigs of rent.

Leo Laporte (00:14:48):
This is a 24 gig system, but when Oh, okay. When Parallels installed it, I didn't even give it anything. Gotcha. By the way that you were saying that the onboarding is, is great. It is. I, I realized I had a parallel subscription, so I downloaded parallels mm-hmm. <Affirmative> put in, you know, logged into it. And I said yeah, I'd like to run Windows 11. It downloaded Windows 11 installed it. And so

Paul Thurrott (00:15:11):
This

Leo Laporte (00:15:12):
Minute it

Paul Thurrott (00:15:12):
Running, it downloaded Windows 11. Yeah. For me, and it's a, it's a, it's a real version of Windows 11, not an inside a preview version. So that means it's out there somewhere, you know? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:15:21):
Just not otherwise available. That the press, that was the press release though, was you now can do this with a real version. Right? Right. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:28):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:15:29):
So I think that's a pretty interesting thing I have to say. I did, did

Paul Thurrott (00:15:34):
You, I

Leo Laporte (00:15:35):
I, I'm pretty happy. I'll probably keep this on here. It doesn't occupy a lot of space you have, you know, you as, as always with a virtualization, you have like a little ISOs type of vir. I can show you a little virtualization file here. That is Windows 11. P V M is the Parallels file format. This

Paul Thurrott (00:15:55):
Is

Leo Laporte (00:15:55):
The hard disk. It's four. Yeah. It's 46 gigs. Oh, one other thing that's pretty cool. Is it, it, it automatically turns on sharing. So I can see the Mac Drive, I can save to the Mac Drive, but I also get my documents and all the Windows style. It will,

Paul Thurrott (00:16:08):
Yeah. We'll do a pass through where your Mac desktop appears as the Windows desktop, whatever files, you know, go back and forth. It's smart.

Leo Laporte (00:16:14):
It's good. Yeah. I think they've done a really interesting job with the whole thing. So anyway, it makes the question, what's the one app?

Paul Thurrott (00:16:23):
Well, for, there are two big use cases, right? I think a lot of times it's gonna be an organization where they have an in-house app, so it's not a, like a public app. And then the other one I think is developers, right? They need to test their, whatever they're making across multiple browsers on multiple platforms. And the Mac is the one place you can do basically all of that. That's true.

Leo Laporte (00:16:41):
You know, you don't get Android, you can't run Safari elsewhere. You don't get the subsystem for Android. You do get Edge. Hey, wait, but I'd get that anyway on the Mac.

Paul Thurrott (00:16:50):
If your browser is include you enough. Why we recommend

Leo Laporte (00:16:53):
<Laugh>. I also get little bit this little, the fabulous widgets over here. I get the widgets. Everybody loves the widgets. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I have the search, by the way, note the search pill.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:04):
Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:06):
Without search highlights, by the way. Very

Leo Laporte (00:17:08):
Nice. I turned that off. Okay. I'm, I'm, I'm a sophisticated enough to have it came with search highlights turned on.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:16):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:17:17):
We'll turn it back on. So you feel more at home?

Paul Thurrott (00:17:19):
No, no. I <laugh> I actually feel more at home when it's up.

Leo Laporte (00:17:22):
I know. 49 Life Act. I wish I'd known sooner. Wait a minute. Forget that novel I was writing,

Paul Thurrott (00:17:28):
Right? What was I looking for again? <Laugh>? Was it for, was it 49 Life Act? I don't think so, but I, me lemme click on this just in case.

Leo Laporte (00:17:37):
<Laugh>. yeah. So when it installed, it installed. I, I mean, literally it asked me nothing. It didn't,

Paul Thurrott (00:17:44):
Do you have an image of new Orleans here in the back?

Leo Laporte (00:17:47):
This is being wallpaper and it's still on Mardi Gras yesterday. I think it should, should update pretty soon. I dunno, there's one drive, so I have all my OneDrive stuff. Yeah, it's cool. It's a little weird, but it's cool. And we'll see what Remarkable

Paul Thurrott (00:17:59):
Lack of vomit. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's, well see, it's, that's why it's 20 early in

Leo Laporte (00:18:03):
The morning. <Laugh>. Yeah. After, after the cleaners have gone through. So I don't know why it didn't update. It's supposed to, oh, here we go. Let's refresh and see what it is today. What is today's being wallpaper? I actually like being wallpaper. I would use it on a Mac if I could. What else?

Paul Thurrott (00:18:23):
Right now?

Leo Laporte (00:18:24):
Yeah. I guess I am. Aren't I? <Laugh>? So, yeah. So some of this is

Paul Thurrott (00:18:29):
Look how they gave you you Maxile icons.

Leo Laporte (00:18:32):
Oh yeah, they did, didn't they? The blue,

Paul Thurrott (00:18:34):
The blue folder

Leo Laporte (00:18:34):
Icons. That's funny. Yeah. So there's the local disk C, which is actually not, it's the virtualization disc. Right. and then I have a, a Mac disc as well. Apparently I have a Linux disc. I don't know. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's interesting. Where that came from. <Laugh>, is that OneDrive? What the hell's that?

Paul Thurrott (00:18:52):
Nope, that's <laugh>. Although, by the way, when you have the Linnux the, the Winex, the Windows subsystem for Linnux installed, you do get a little thing over

Leo Laporte (00:19:01):
There. Yeah. And so that's what I'm saying is maybe my other Windows installed, which does have wsl. Maybe it copied the Linux desktop to OneDrive.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:10):
That's kind of curious. Click on one of those things.

Leo Laporte (00:19:11):
You can't, you can't have you can't have the Linux. Oh, look at that. Oh, you know what? This might be the Mac. This is my Mac stuff. Okay. It's identifying as Linux. Okay. That's a bug. Hmm. That's a little bit of a bug. What happens if I,

Paul Thurrott (00:19:28):
You heard it here first, folks. Mac is really running Linnux.

Leo Laporte (00:19:32):
It's really running Linnux under the hood.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:34):
Do

Leo Laporte (00:19:34):
It here. Let's just open 15 programming problems in Notepad. I'm gonna say just once. But notice it gave me Mac as well as Windows apps to open

Paul Thurrott (00:19:45):
That. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:19:46):
Yeah. That's that's right. That was kind of cool.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:47):
Yeah. That's

Leo Laporte (00:19:48):
Nice. So open with is.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:50):
So you should, and

Leo Laporte (00:19:51):
It even says

Paul Thurrott (00:19:52):
Like, command Space to do the what do they call it, on Spotlight or whatever.

Leo Laporte (00:19:56):
Yeah. That's working.

Paul Thurrott (00:19:57):
And then run a Windows out from there. I've been notepad. I bet that works

Leo Laporte (00:20:02):
Fine. Let me try. Not yet. But I, but I think it would, this is not the standard. This is not su search spotlight. It's something else. Oh, yeah, I bet. But yeah, I bet it would. I know I can, I know. I, as you said, I could put on the Mac, I could put Windows apps in my dock. Yep. in fact, there's Word Holy Kaly. Look at that in Windows.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:25):
Where has God intended it? Running on Windows.

Leo Laporte (00:20:28):
<Laugh>. <laugh>. All right. Anyway, I thought I'd I thought I'd bring this in. Give you a little show and tell. I think it's done a, a nice job except for identifying a Mac as a Linux <laugh>. PC <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:40):
Yeah. But that might be purpose purposeful too, right? They're trying to just like, that's what's in Windows, so they, you know. Yeah. Just trying to make it na native looking. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:20:49):
Yeah. I think

Paul Thurrott (00:20:51):
That stuff works

Leo Laporte (00:20:52):
Great. I I'm very impressed it works. So, as I was saying, the onboarding is completely, they don't, I've, I've used Parallels before where they ask you all these questions. Yeah. Nothing.

Paul Thurrott (00:21:04):
I mean, I think you can still do like a

Leo Laporte (00:21:05):
Manual. Oh, I can go back into settings now, and I I can give it more Ram. I can make it harder. Yeah. Larger hard drive, as I point I show showed you, it's about a 46 gig hard drive that's the windows installed. But it's, it, it expands and contracts as you add stuff to it. But, you know, on a reasonably sized Mac hard drive even five 12 gigs, you get plenty of room mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to, it's a much better than trying to run boot bootcamp and, and partitioning it and all that. Right. But you can't do some of the things you could do with bootcamp, like DirectX games and stuff like that. All right. I

Paul Thurrott (00:21:39):
Don't, I don't see bootcamp ever coming back. I think this

Leo Laporte (00:21:42):
No, I don't. No. I'm, I think Apple's virtually said no. Yeah. And it does run Direct X 11, which is not as fast as Direct X 12, but it's better than 12. I mean, it's better than nothing. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good point. HP see how game would react. So if I find it, lemme see if I find the, what would you suggest?

Paul Thurrott (00:22:00):
Crisis. I mean, the only

Leo Laporte (00:22:01):
<Laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (00:22:04):
Actually, actually, here's what you do. Whatever the latest asphalt is, asphalt Nine or whatever that's called. That's

Leo Laporte (00:22:10):
Probably a good, I mean, I think mostly I probably would do Xbox Cloud gaming or something like that. But yeah, cuz I can do that. Some reason

Paul Thurrott (00:22:18):
The racing games always run well, they, even though they look really good Asphalt Nine Legends

Leo Laporte (00:22:25):
Get it from Microsoft's store. This site is trying to open the Microsoft store. Why would you ever want to do that? Always allow bing.com to open links of that type. Yes, indeed. Indeed.

Paul Thurrott (00:22:37):
You sold your soul right there.

Leo Laporte (00:22:38):
What's <laugh> directly to Darkness

Paul Thurrott (00:22:42):
Is this, does the Microsoft store, is it playing a banjo right now?

Leo Laporte (00:22:45):
What's going on? So I'll download this. This will take a little

Paul Thurrott (00:22:52):
While. Yeah. This could take a while.

Leo Laporte (00:22:52):
You guys continue with your silly talk. And then as soon as Asphalt nine is running, we're going racing. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh, holy gosh.

Paul Thurrott (00:23:06):
So one of the big and yet quiet stories since Windows 1122 H two came out last year is that Microsoft intends to ship some number of what they're calling internally moments or moments updates. And in a traditional way, it appears that the first of those is about to hit stable because this thing has made its way through Dev beta and now release channel release preview channel, sorry. Which is the traditional way for this to happen. Right? It's, it's, they've skipped some steps on with other releases, but it looks like this is happening. So there is a, if you were on the release preview and Windows 11 you can see some of the stuff that's gonna be in this next moment update, meaning it's probably gonna come out in about a month on Pa Patch Tuesday and March. Right. So, nothing super dramatic. It's the the new kind of tablet. Well, it's not a tab. They're not gonna call it tablet mode, but like the touch optimized task bar, if you remove the keyboard from a tablet, you'll get something that's more akin to what you would want when you're, you know, using it with your hands, you know, integrated Windows, studio effects. It's some new accessibility stuff, et cetera. But nothing, nothing major, major. But you know, this is, this is the first one. I mean, we'll see,

(00:24:24):
We'll see how it goes

Rich Campbell (00:24:25):
Moment. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:27):
Yeah. I know. What does

Rich Campbell (00:24:29):
Moment, what does a moment mean to you? I know it's that moment where you don't know where the stuff you were looking for is Right. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:24:36):
To me, what a moment is, is it's the the beginning of a 60 day period of uncertainty because it's gonna appear on some computers and not others. And there'll be different bill numbers, and this one will have the features, even though it, it's not a high enough bill number and this one won't, even though it is. And that's the way these have gone. So,

Rich Campbell (00:24:52):
So it's the moment of confusion.

Paul Thurrott (00:24:54):
Exactly. This is the beginning of the moment of con Yeah, for sure.

Rich Campbell (00:24:57):
I mean, you brought up the collapsed icon Bar. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which, I mean, Steven Kovski would be proud. This is what they were trying to do in Win eight back in the day.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:06):
And not You ever let those words pass your lips in my presence? <Laugh>

Rich Campbell (00:25:11):
Steven Sinofsky. Slowly I turned

Paul Thurrott (00:25:18):
Yes. Well as well. Yes. <laugh>. Anyway. Yes. Damn him. Yes.

Rich Campbell (00:25:26):
Do you Oi all right. Beta channel builds.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:32):
Yeah. So in addition to the release preview build that came out yesterday, today, I don't remember when that happened last week, late last week, we got two builds in the beta channel. And that's how they're doing things now. Remember, one, one Build stream gets the new feature and one doesn't. And if you're in the part of the beta channel that's not getting the new features automatically, you can actually check for updates and Windows update, and you can download the kb whatever it is, and get them. So that's there. Nothing major. A again, you know, new widgets these are third party widgets. Mostly Facebook Messenger, Spotify some others. There's <laugh>, you gonna like this one? AI powered recommendations and start for those PCs that are joined to an a d or a Azure Active Directory domain. So what, what does that mean? <Laugh>? What that means is you have a pin section in the start menu. You have a, a recommended section by default. Recommended is a co weird combination of recently installed or recommended, or if you've checked this box apps use the most and recent documents. And so what this is gonna do is surface recent documents from inside your organization that may be pertinent to you supposedly using AI to make that recommendation. I, there are no words. So <laugh> I

Leo Laporte (00:26:50):
Dunno. AI is, there you go. It's soon. It's gonna be everywhere.

Paul Thurrott (00:26:56):
Well, it is in a way, right? So the Windows Studio Effects feature I mentioned briefly, that is now available in lease preview, is an, a set of AI powered features. Right? These are those things where, you know, the webcam makes it look like your eyes are looking forward, even if you're kinda looking around. Or

Leo Laporte (00:27:11):
Daniel Rubino was on twit on Sunday, and he mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but he was using the Nvidia one and it was uncanny. I mean, it really worked, worked beautifully for the whole three hours. The only weird thing is, at one point, it's a thumbnail for the show. He put his finger in front of his eye and the eye popped out and went right in front of the fucking, oh

Paul Thurrott (00:27:30):
God.

Leo Laporte (00:27:30):
Oh

Paul Thurrott (00:27:31):
Geez. <Laugh>, geez.

Leo Laporte (00:27:33):
Other than that he, when he looked down, he was reading a document looking down, and he was still Yeah, the, it's a little uncanny cuz the eye contact is Yeah. 100% full. But it

Paul Thurrott (00:27:44):
Was, I went to play video games during work meetings. So this would be good for me. It's

Leo Laporte (00:27:47):
Great for that

Paul Thurrott (00:27:49):
<Laugh>. It's,

Leo Laporte (00:27:49):
I didn't, you know, it was amazing and it didn't look

Rich Campbell (00:27:52):
Weird. A couple more features, right. It's gotta blink a little look away a little. Yeah. Like if it just wasn't that rigid, locked on effect.

Leo Laporte (00:28:01):
Sure. And just don't, I think they need to have in front of your eyes, that's all.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:05):
Instead of like, normalized, they're like cat eyes. And what that means is like all of a sudden they just look off in a corner like something's going on. They're like, ye yeah. <Laugh> just, you know, oh, I don't like that. Now look

Rich Campbell (00:28:15):
In, in anime culture is normal for the Ida show through the hair.

Leo Laporte (00:28:19):
Oh. So, so this is perfect for that. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:28:21):
For the younger generation, that wouldn't bother them at all.

Leo Laporte (00:28:24):
What I mean, but you could see even the fact this, the finger's there that the eye contact is like, it feels very genuine. Like he's really looking into my soul. Mm-Hmm.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:34):
<Affirmative>, he really is. Yeah. I, I actually kinda like him more now.

Leo Laporte (00:28:39):
<Laugh>,

Paul Thurrott (00:28:40):
I've always liked that I was, I anyone misconstrue

Leo Laporte (00:28:43):
That? Don't misconstrue that.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:45):
No.

Leo Laporte (00:28:45):
Yeah. And Daniel's great. Yeah. so here's a, here's another shot from, from the show. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Just so you get a, a better sense of how that works. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:28:56):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:28:57):
Yeah. Okay. There we go. Moving right along. We're gonna get to AI in a bit. We're gonna do a full, we sure are a full segment on that suck.

Rich Campbell (00:29:06):
It's, it's great. We've had a couple of, you know, finally AI's not the first

Leo Laporte (00:29:10):
Subject. It takes the first hour, right? It will pro, we'll

Paul Thurrott (00:29:14):
Call it progress. We're trying to live and grow here, you know, just

Paul Thurrott (00:29:20):
Sound of number two. So it is almost the end of February meaning we're almost two-thirds of the way through this quarter. So I'm kind of hoping we're done with earnings from the previous quarter. But one of the last companies to check in, I hope, was Lenovo, who of course is the world's largest PC maker. Not surprisingly, their revenues fell 24% in the fourth quarter. Like a lot of other PC makers, especially the big guys you know, they've been trying to diversify their business. And the thing that was interesting to me about this report was they almost didn't discuss PCs at all. It was like PCs didn't happen. And they were, they were quick to point out that they were the world's biggest maker of still, and then they kind of stopped talking about it, <laugh>. And I, and I think part of the rationale there is they're, they're trying to show like, look, we're resilient. We have these other businesses that are now a bigger chunk of what we do.

Leo Laporte (00:30:10):
What are those other

Paul Thurrott (00:30:11):
Businesses? I don't know Leo. I, I <laugh>, I honestly, they

Leo Laporte (00:30:14):
Have a phone business cuz they bought Mo

Paul Thurrott (00:30:16):
Motorola. Yeah. No, they have data center stuff and I'm sure there's a whole services thing going on, but all, all I care about is pc. So,

Leo Laporte (00:30:25):
Sorry, I'm, do my part. I'm gonna buy another think pad today. There you

Paul Thurrott (00:30:28):
Go. Actually yeah. Mobile World Congress is coming up.

Leo Laporte (00:30:32):
Oh, yeah. I'll wait.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:33):
Wait. Yeah. So

Leo Laporte (00:30:35):
Well, now that I can windows on my Mac, who needs a think pad? You're ready for,

Paul Thurrott (00:30:39):
Hey, hey.

Leo Laporte (00:30:39):
You ready for some game loft action? Oh yes. Excited. This is good. Now I turned the sound up.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:46):
Okay.

Leo Laporte (00:30:48):
Well, it kind of looks like it's working by the way somebody asks, by the way. This is cool. Look, when I turn the apple sound, the windows sound pops up and does it too. It's like they're sync.

Paul Thurrott (00:30:59):
That's nice. So you can see how they copied it.

Leo Laporte (00:31:02):
<Laugh> <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:05):
It makes it really easy.

Leo Laporte (00:31:06):
Makes it really do.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:07):
It used to be over in the corner and now it's right, it's

Leo Laporte (00:31:10):
Right there. It's right. Huh. a, a youthful 66 year old male, and I'm gonna accept that. Well, I can't really accept box, accept can only just live with it synchronizing to my previous games. Yeah. just play. Right. I'm not gonna connect it with other Xbox. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:31):
It should just run. I think it, I think it will.

Leo Laporte (00:31:33):
Just so somebody asked, well, how do you know it's the Windows on, it's the arm version of Asphalt nine. Is it the case of

Paul Thurrott (00:31:39):
It's the

Leo Laporte (00:31:39):
Store. Okay. But if the store brought it up, right. So if the

Paul Thurrott (00:31:43):
Store level, so you could, by the way, you could be emulating an intel version

Leo Laporte (00:31:46):
Of this. Yeah. I don't even know.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:47):
Let me look. I, it, it may be arm native.

Leo Laporte (00:31:49):
I'm not sure. I mean, look this is a cut scene obviously, but it's playing just fine. Yep. But video is one thing. Yeah. Let's, let's play a game. Shall we play a game? Let's see, let's, okay. I just wanna play a game. Hold the w key to accelerate. Okay, cool. <Laugh>, there's a little hesitation. Oh yeah. And I'm gonna blame, I'm gonna blame that on why I keep crashing. There we go. There's fireworks over Paris tonight as Leo LaPorte takes the wheel of the asphalt Ferrari. F1 trials begin today. So this is perfect timing. <Laugh>. All right. You know what, this is totally playable. I mean, it's not Okay. Down arrow. It's not gonna be down. Press hold the down arrow es while steering to drift.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:38):
Why can't I find this?

Leo Laporte (00:32:39):
Press the to drift. I'm Yes, fine. I'm crashing into stuff while I'm Oh, okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:45):
So I believe this is only an X 64 game.

Leo Laporte (00:32:49):
Oh, very interesting. So it's

Paul Thurrott (00:32:50):
Emulating. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:32:51):
It's what it's emulating. Wow. DirectX 11, I presume. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> presume. Don't want to drift

Paul Thurrott (00:32:56):
Left. Close it. I'm sorry. I see. Yeah, I see.

Leo Laporte (00:32:58):
You're right. Drift left. Drift left. Okay. Yeah, right into that store. Oh, I know this part of Paris. This is great. The obelisk is right ahead. <Laugh>. Sure. Yeah. I dunno where I am. Is that is that the Elizabeth Tower? Maybe I'm in London. I won't know till I see the Ferris wheel. Oh, this is fun. Oh, nitro, nitro. Boost. Boost. There you go.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:24):
How faster button on your pc?

Leo Laporte (00:33:27):
I'm missing everything. Oh, oh. Into the

Paul Thurrott (00:33:29):
Sand. Like, you're from

Leo Laporte (00:33:30):
Pennsylvania. What's going on here? <Laugh>. Okay, so this is running pretty well. You would agree? Yes. Mm-hmm.

Paul Thurrott (00:33:36):
<Affirmative>. Yeah. I mean, granted, we kind of tilted the deck here, so to speak. This is this, the game for some reason always runs great, you know, well even on pretty low end hardware.

Leo Laporte (00:33:45):
But this is oh, I can use Shockwave and then press, double press the space bar. Is it like,

Paul Thurrott (00:33:51):
Knock other cars outta the way?

Leo Laporte (00:33:53):
<Laugh> finish. Yes. Let's finish. So yeah, that's, you know what, I didn't even think of this. That's pretty amazing. Impressive. That's pretty amazing, isn't it? Yep. Yeah. And just to, just, just to prove it, this is running on an M two Mac. This is the latest MacBook Air M 2 24 gigs of Ram. Not a huge, a amount of Ram. And you know, that's pretty good. Pretty good.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:21):
Not bad.

Leo Laporte (00:34:23):
Yeah, not bad at all. Emulated. Emulated. And you're saying it's X 86 emulation. That's pretty amazing.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:29):
64, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:34:32):
Wow. Yep.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:33):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:34:34):
So yeah, the game, the store doesn't say anything about anything. This pro, it just says this product should work on your device.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:41):
Right? Well, because your, the store sees your computer knows what it is and knows that it will run

Leo Laporte (00:34:46):
Available on Xbox Os. It

Paul Thurrott (00:34:48):
Does say X

Leo Laporte (00:34:49):
64. Look at that. Direct X 10. 10. Yeah. And I have six gigs of Ram. I'm running this in, in, in, did I say six or eight? Maybe it's eight. I think

Paul Thurrott (00:34:58):
You said eight. Eight.

Leo Laporte (00:34:59):
But I'm not sure. Yeah, right. This is not a super demanding game, but nevertheless.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:05):
But it looks great and it's fast moving. You know, I it's a nice demo.

Leo Laporte (00:35:08):
Yeah. I mean, everything's smooth. Look at the scrolling smooth. Everything's pretty smooth. And we should say, by the way, I am not even direct connected. This is connected via wifi and airplay to an Apple tv. This is how you seeing it? 

Paul Thurrott (00:35:25):
Well, it just goes to show you that we've been let down on the hardware side, and this is why we're waiting for Qualcomm to finish up. Its, what was that company called? Nu Nuva.

Leo Laporte (00:35:33):
Nuvia. Nuvia Nuvia, yeah. That they purchased.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:35):
Yeah. So the first we should get the first announcements late this year, and then the first product a year from now. That is my guess. And

Leo Laporte (00:35:44):
Is this actually gonna be a Microsoft branded

Paul Thurrott (00:35:45):
Processor? Or is this gonna, well, there might be a Microsoft version of it, but it'll be a Qualcomm, it would qual processor first. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:35:54):
So that was a demonstration of Apple, Silicon running windows in a vm.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:00):
Well, as we

Leo Laporte (00:36:00):
Virtualizing,

Paul Thurrott (00:36:01):
Try to promote Apple hardware as much as possible. And

Leo Laporte (00:36:05):
<Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:06):
So thank you for that, Leo. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:36:10):
No, I'm actually just kind of No, it's impressive. Shocked, to be honest. It's, yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:16):
Well, I've done it enough. It doesn't surprise me, but it's, it is a sad reality that Windows on Arm Tave runs better and virtualized on Apple than it does on actual hardware. It's just, it's

Leo Laporte (00:36:27):
Sad. Yeah. I mean this, I mean, I, I avoided buying the, you know, that HP Folio and a bunch of other Windows on arm machines, cuz you said they were sluggish. The one I, the only one I ever bought was

Paul Thurrott (00:36:39):
Terrible. They've gotten better. I mean, I, I don't mean to dump on them completely. The latest gen, whatever it's called is pretty good. 

Leo Laporte (00:36:45):
Exactly. Whatever

Paul Thurrott (00:36:46):
The Lenovo think. Paddock 31. Yeah. S maybe whatever. It's, it's okay. You know, it's okay. It it, but it drops the ball a lot. You know, you're, you think you're, you're kind of going along fine, then all of a sudden everything grinds to a

Leo Laporte (00:36:59):
Hal. Well, I would say you shouldn't do it unless you run pretty standard apps. Obviously, you know, this isn't for Yeah. The weirdo apps or the pro, you know, video.

Paul Thurrott (00:37:08):
Well, you're also gonna run into some troubles, and this is not, I don't see where this gets solved, but you're gonna run into problems with driver type stuff where you know, HP has a printer that's an all in, all-in-one that the scanning and whatever, and they have this custom software and that stuff's never getting installed. Like it's,

Leo Laporte (00:37:22):
That's never, I asked Daniel if the holdup was, as we had theorized in the past, that qual come at some sort of exclusive with Microsoft. He said he didn't think so. It was really just a, a driver issue. It was just getting the software to work and it just took that long. You, you said Parallels

Paul Thurrott (00:37:37):
Promised

Leo Laporte (00:37:38):
A year and a half ago.

Paul Thurrott (00:37:41):
Oh, the issue, getting it on on

Leo Laporte (00:37:43):
On

Paul Thurrott (00:37:43):
Silicon. On Apple. Yeah. So actually, okay, that's an interesting point. So I talked to Qual, I talked to Qualcomm every year not Qualcom. I talked to parallels every year when they released new versions of the software. And I tested every year and I look at it and yeah. But a year and a half ago so two versions ago they told me, they said, yeah, this is happening. And it never happened. <Laugh>, you know, <laugh> and oddly that guy doesn't work at Perilous anymore. But anyway, the point is or a Carla whatever, it's you know, this has been coming for a long time. I, I wonder if the list of things that doesn't work is a clue about why this wasn't supported officially. Like I think one of the things that had to happen was X 64 emulation first, which happened whenever that was a year or two ago.

(00:38:27):
 I think if you look at the things that don't work, it's like, well, this is obviously something for businesses, right? They, they're requiring, you know, windows 11 pro or enterprise for one thing, which is interesting, it all the virtualization stuff doesn't work, right? W S L W S A sandbox, et cetera, et cetera. Direct X 12 doesn't work. I, I know that's a gaming thing, whatever. But I I, I kind of wonder if there wasn't a bigger list of these things that weren't working properly and that, that maybe that, that's sort of what Daniel said, I guess, is that as that those problems started to disappear, this list became more manageable. And it's like, look, this is reasonable.

Rich Campbell (00:39:05):
I I wouldn't expect when I look at the list of the things that don't run, yeah. They all strike me as ring zero. Things like the, the distinction between direct X 11 and direction 12 is direct X 11 is ring three, direct XS 12 is ring zero.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:19):
Right? Right.

Rich Campbell (00:39:19):
Like, right. That's

Leo Laporte (00:39:21):
Interesting. So in other words, direct X 11 runs in user space. That's right. And DirectX 12 runs in system

Rich Campbell (00:39:28):
Space. Yeah. Protective. And so system space and Direct X 11 is a highly compatible, it runs everywhere. Right? It doesn't matter what chip set youve got, it doesn't matter what process are you using.

Paul Thurrott (00:39:38):
The other interesting note here is when, when Windows and Arm first appeared, it was 32 bit only. It was a 32 bit arm, and it was running only ran 32 bit. Wait, is that right? Yes. And it only ran 32 bit Windows apps and emulation. So over time, X 64 happened, it became 64 bed, et cetera. This on apple hardware, this thing does not support 32 bit R Maps. Which are in the process of being deprecated across

Rich Campbell (00:40:07):
Anyway. Yeah. They're not gonna fix it. They're just going to eliminate it.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:10):
Yeah. Just get rid of 'em, right? Yeah. And that's kind of an interesting thing. I, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know that there are a lot of native 64 bed arm maps out in the world, but, and I, and Richard knows more than this, than I do. I know it's not, I know it sounds as simple as checking a box in Visual Studio or whatever and putting all

Rich Campbell (00:40:28):
Different for.net it is pretty much Yeah. Right. Like for the most part because it's abstracted. Right? That's what the common language run time's always been about. Yep. Is that you don't need to know. It will simply compile too. Let's just do it. Yeah. And I think you're gonna talk later about the seven 17.5. Like they, the whole arm stack is back in force in studio, which That's right. Which to me says they're gearing up for the devs to be able to push to native arm 64.

Paul Thurrott (00:40:55):
And I think that what is this, whatever this new villa thing is coming down the pipe, this new generation of Qualcomm chip sets will finally make not arm not just viable for, you know, normal people, but also possibly for developers as well. Whereas today I think it's a little experimental. It feels Yeah. You know, to

Rich Campbell (00:41:16):
Me, well, it, there's gonna be edges, right? Yeah. And, but you hit on the main thing, which is drivers.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:21):
Yeah. Right? That's the

Rich Campbell (00:41:22):
Tough one. And, and, and certainly legacy drivers.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:26):
Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. I'm sorry to interrupt. I, but it's, it's depending on how people do things Yeah. You're either gonna be perfectly okay, or this is completely

Rich Campbell (00:41:36):
Unacceptable. And people, you're meaning companies like Hewlett Packard.

Paul Thurrott (00:41:39):
Yeah. <laugh>, well, for example,

Rich Campbell (00:41:41):
Got, I've got a plotter that's a few years old, and the WIN 10 driver works a dream and it refuses to run a win

Paul Thurrott (00:41:47):
11. Yeah. Let alone on arm. But they know Yeah. God does

Rich Campbell (00:41:50):
Let alone on arm, arm, forget it. You

Paul Thurrott (00:41:52):
Have enough clue. Oh, I mean, but for a lot of people, you open your laptop, you connect to some printer that's on the network, it just works. You don't really think about it. Yeah. And those class drivers are available across all versions of Windows that will work fine. So depending on your needs an arm machine could be perfectly wrong, compatible with whatever you use, you know. Yeah. A

Rich Campbell (00:42:09):
A class four driver will generally let you print, right? Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:13):
And print correctly, right. Not just

Rich Campbell (00:42:14):
Print. I'm, I'm complaining about a network scanner, which Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:19):
Which is a very specific, forget it.

Rich Campbell (00:42:21):
Esoteric for the, and for the pain you'll go through to make a network scanner work, you can buy U USB scanners for everybody mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and they will work.

Paul Thurrott (00:42:29):
Yep. Yep. Yeah. We'll get there. Not this year, but <laugh> eventually. Before we move on, I just wanted, there was one bit I wanted to note from the Lenovo earnings, because the one thing they said, this is the first, this is a, a quote from their earnings report. That is the first time I've seen this. They ta they were talking about all of the same macroeconomic pressures, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever, all these things that are happening. They did, they, they said the group, meaning the part of the company that makes PCs expects to see year on year growth this year resuming in the second half with end user demand to be higher than pre covid levels. I have never seen any PC makers make such a claim. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that's, that might be good news. You know, one of the big questions with this downturn is how long it lasts. Yeah. Is it permanent <laugh>? You know, where do we kind of level set going forward? But Lenovo apparently expects that they're gonna see PC sales growth in the second half of the year and to be higher than was the case before Covid. So, before covid, it's

Leo Laporte (00:43:40):
Critical though, because all of the big demand spike was cause of Covid. So that's, they're gonna say we're back to normal, basically, that that spike

Paul Thurrott (00:43:49):
Even normal in a way. Right? Yeah. And a little bit,

Leo Laporte (00:43:52):
But, but normal was always kind of a little bit up all the time. Yes. No,

Paul Thurrott (00:43:56):
Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:43:56):
But also

Paul Thurrott (00:43:58):
Spell for seven years straight. Oh, nevermind. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Rich Campbell (00:44:04):
You've got the supply chain problems, right? And they're still being straightened out, like literally just getting ports properly cleared, getting empty containers where they need to be. Like they said, that'd take a couple of years to get nailed down. But I also think, and this is certainly affecting me and my roles around investing and, and with traded companies, companies are realigning to the fact that money costs money now. Right. We've had 10 years of effectively 0% interest. Yeah. And now we, now it isn't there. So, you

Paul Thurrott (00:44:33):
Know. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Leo, I know <laugh>, everybody know, everybody know in the mortgage knows I'm, yeah. I we stupidly bought an apartment with zero when it was zero, and now it's not

Leo Laporte (00:44:45):
Zero. No, it's not. Oh, but you got a adjustable rate.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:48):
Well, we have a, yeah, it's, we have a, it's a home equity line of credit that's tied to Prime, and then Oh,

Leo Laporte (00:44:53):
Mm-Hmm.

Rich Campbell (00:44:54):
<Affirmative>, then Prime

Paul Thurrott (00:44:54):
Changed. Yeah. It used to be used to be nothing. And then in our, our bill last year tripled.

Leo Laporte (00:45:01):
Wow.

Paul Thurrott (00:45:01):
Our monthly bill. Yeah. That's how bad it was.

Leo Laporte (00:45:03):
Oh, that's terrible.

Rich Campbell (00:45:05):
And, you know, I'm doing acquisitions work with a few different organizations where the presumption for any acquisition was cash. Right. Because cash

Leo Laporte (00:45:13):
Is cheap. Cash is free. Yeah. And

Rich Campbell (00:45:15):
Now cash isn't cheap. So suddenly it's like, what does a stock deal look like? And crazily, because it's been so long, right? Like, folks don't even know they're, they're looking for the paperwork for how do we properly file for a stock based

Leo Laporte (00:45:28):
Acquisition? What's such short memories?

Rich Campbell (00:45:30):
It was, it was because it was 10 years ago. It really was.

Leo Laporte (00:45:33):
That's funny. Well, I haven't bought a house in 10 years, so I didn't, I didn't know that.

Rich Campbell (00:45:38):
<Laugh>, now you're better off.

Leo Laporte (00:45:40):
We bet off. All right, let's take a little break then. We are gonna talk ai, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but we have to, I'm sorry. No's. No,

Paul Thurrott (00:45:47):
Actually I think it's AI Overlarge demanded. I think

Leo Laporte (00:45:49):
It's honestly a fascinating topic. I'm not, I'm not burned out on it yet. I'm sure

Rich Campbell (00:45:53):
Our audience is. No, I, I need more tea if we're talking to ai. So let's

Leo Laporte (00:45:57):
<Laugh> go get some tea. Our show they brought to you by you probably notice it all through all of our shows. The great folks at ACI learning studio sponsors for the year. Thank you. Thank you. ACI Learning. You may say, well, who are these guys? Well, you know the name it Pro IT Pros now, ACI Learning, they've merged and by doing so, have actually added a huge amount of capability. So this is really good news for existing IT pro customers. And if you're not yet an ACI learning customer may be for you too, for the last decade. Our partners at IT Pro brought you as you know, engaging, entertaining IT training, whether it's to level up your career or your organization or to even get that first job in it. Well now, because IT pro's part of ACI learning, it's expanding, its reach, production capabilities are improved.

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And that's really, really good for all of us because it means you, you can finally let your dreams come true and get that job. A third of information security jobs require a cybersecurity cert. Get the certs, get the skills to maintain your competitive edge across Audit IT and cybersecurity readiness. Go dot aci learning.com/twit. Don't forget the go and don't forget the special code TWIT 30, which gets you 30% off, either a standard or premium individual IT pro membership. That's a good deal. TWI 30, the offer code, the website, go dot aci learning.com/twit. We are thrilled to have you know it. Pros been with us for more than a decade. We're thrilled to have them and ACI learning on the network. Thank you for buying studio naming rights that's really helped us in the long run. And and I encourage you, take advantage of this opportunity. Don't forget the offer code TWIT 30 at go aci learning.com/twit. I was before you got up, I was telling Paul that I've, I see the.net rocks mug. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but I only see the c k s at the end. And I wasn't sure <laugh> <laugh>. It is.net Rocks.

Rich Campbell (00:52:37):
Okay. And it's the vintage mug. It's the mug from like 2000 Ooh

Leo Laporte (00:52:42):
Five.

Rich Campbell (00:52:43):
Ooh. So the, Hey, the photo of Carl on that. I think it's his high school picture. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (00:52:49):
Let's look young. Yeah, you both look kind

Rich Campbell (00:52:51):
Of when those forums was still the going concern when this, the, the picture of me is like a week off of somebody in Kilimanjaro. I'm still a sunburn.

Leo Laporte (00:53:02):
Oh, that's cool. Wow.

Rich Campbell (00:53:04):
And I just sort of tame the beard.

Leo Laporte (00:53:07):
Were you a mountain? Are you a still a mountain climber?

Rich Campbell (00:53:10):
Eh, I'm a little slower these days, you know? That's pretty cool. How did, was a, a good climber.

Leo Laporte (00:53:15):
How did you do it with, with I did it

Rich Campbell (00:53:19):
The old fashioned way with a pile of money. <Laugh>. There was, there were 10 paying climbers together. It's really a hike. And like 85 porters when we started.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:35):
They basically drive you in a Land Rover to 10 feet from the summit. Then you get out and

Leo Laporte (00:53:39):
Oh, you

Rich Campbell (00:53:40):
Don't, don't, you do have to do the walking, but they're carrying your bag, right? Like you have, you have a backpack. And these, that team carried like a tent and table and benches for us. So we could eat indoors and they'd race ahead of you and set up for lunch. And then we'd, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:53:57):
Oh, I want to do this. You gotta send me the information. This sounds great.

Rich Campbell (00:54:00):
So this is, this is pretty glamp and and in Nemo's amazing. Like I've actually had a bunch, a few folks have gone to see him since then. He runs quite a practice. And then we went on safari afterwards, you know, what'd you

Leo Laporte (00:54:12):
Do? Oh, it's fun.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:12):
One of those, yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:54:13):
Nice there. Who, who, who was the organizer?

Rich Campbell (00:54:18):
I'd have to go look up the, oh, I'd love

Leo Laporte (00:54:19):
To find

Rich Campbell (00:54:19):
That again. But it's like, it's like at Tanzania Adventures type thing, but Oh, assume we can.

Leo Laporte (00:54:26):
Okay. Lisa and I are gonna do this for sure. That sounds great.

Rich Campbell (00:54:28):
There there are more story if you want stories. Kimel Joe, we could talk about it, because I really, prob arguably shouldn't have been there. Like the other porters were, there was a bedding pool on me when I was gonna tap out, know each day I made it to a camp. Some people are cheer and some people are

Paul Thurrott (00:54:43):
Crying on a spit or on his feet. We, we

Leo Laporte (00:54:46):
Hit on a bicycle ride in Corsica, and I found out at the end that the, the, the leaders were betting on whether I'd make it, you know, like how far how's, how, and they thought I was having a heart attack the whole way. Okay. Yeah. Maybe

Rich Campbell (00:54:58):
I should. Well, that was basically me. They didn't expect me to, the only I expected me to summit was John, my guide. And he, he pretty much hauled me over a couple of those rocks.

Leo Laporte (00:55:08):
Okay. We're just gonna cut that whole part out and we're just gonna stop at I when I summited Kilimanjaro. I love that. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (00:55:14):
It's a, it's, it's a good line. That's a

Leo Laporte (00:55:16):
Great line. Yeah. What was the Kilimanjaro doing in your pajamas? No, no. That's another story entirely. <Laugh> let's talk ai, by the way, that's the kinda line in AI would come up with. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:55:28):
Exactly. I didn't say, I wouldn't have said it if you weren't such a bad person. <Laugh>. Wait, what?

Leo Laporte (00:55:33):
The stories of the past week. I gotta say, in my opinion, the real problem here is that journalists want to anthropomorphize this ai. And so they,

Paul Thurrott (00:55:43):
I I'm glad you said journalists, cuz the, the real problem from my perspective is literally journalists.

Leo Laporte (00:55:48):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. They're driving it crazy. Like they're, they're poking at it until it says something nonsensical. Yeah. Because it's not a thing. It's

Paul Thurrott (00:55:54):
Not a, we go in a different direction.

Leo Laporte (00:55:55):
Okay, hold on. But Mike, here's my opinion, it's not sentient. Yeah. It's autocorrect. No spicy autocorrect, somebody said, and it's, this is, it's predict, it's just predictive and it's going. And if you drive it long enough starts to spout nonsense. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Paul Thurrott (00:56:09):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:56:10):
But okay. Grammatically correct. Nonsense, but nonsense. These journalists just wanted it to spout

Paul Thurrott (00:56:16):
Nonsense. This, it's, it's stupidity on both sides when it comes to journalists. So I don't know how many Microsoft events Richard and or I have been to in our lives, let's say. It's been a lot. And so for us to show up at some Microsoft event and then walk out of the, like little girls screaming, oh my God, you're not gonna believe it. The Singularity's here is the most immature, unsophisticated response you could possibly have to anything. And that's what we saw. Yeah. And the thing that comes out after the fact is go back and watch the tape on the Microsoft thing. That thing made more mistakes than the Google demo did. Yeah. But the Google demo talk about for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. It was all, that was all the talk. I, I'm, that's

Leo Laporte (00:56:53):
Because there wasn't much of a demo from Google. I mean, Google really didn't

Paul Thurrott (00:56:56):
Go very Yeah. Give it more time. I'm sure it could screw up more. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:56:59):
I could,

Paul Thurrott (00:57:00):
But a lot better. Kevin, Russ Russon New York Times was so blown away by this initial thing that he declared. He was switching to Bing right at the time. And I was like, no, no, you're not <laugh>. And then a week later and a week later he writes, A week later, I've changed my mind. Oh no, I'm not, I'm still fascinated by this

Leo Laporte (00:57:17):
Wrong both ways.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:19):
Right. Deeply unsettled, even frightened, no. By thisis AI's emergency

Leo Laporte (00:57:23):
Disabil. This is, again, this is anthropomorphizing things. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:26):
This is, yeah. This is, I expect better from these people

Leo Laporte (00:57:30):
Simultaneously. Giddy. And I had skeptical,

Rich Campbell (00:57:33):
I've had very intelligent friends of mine talking this way, and I'm like, listen, are you threatened when a parrot tells you you're ugly?

Paul Thurrott (00:57:40):
Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (00:57:41):
A parent is arguably words not even arguably is more sentient.

Rich Campbell (00:57:46):
Oh, absolutely. Far

Leo Laporte (00:57:47):
More. Steve said this yesterday, should actually feed itself. Yes. He said, when a parrot says Polly wants a cracker, is actually thinking, but chance you this, I

Paul Thurrott (00:57:55):
Might get cracker. Leo, Leo mentioned Ben Thompson mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, who I think is one of the most

Leo Laporte (00:57:59):
Over the top. Yeah. He went

Paul Thurrott (00:58:01):
Incredible cost of mind in our industry. Lost his mind. Yep. Like, just lost his,

Leo Laporte (00:58:06):
Everybody lost their minds in this one. That's, but problem

Rich Campbell (00:58:09):
Number one is, but why are you having philosophical existential debates with a, a piece of software? It's a search tool. Stop

Paul Thurrott (00:58:17):
It. I know. It's, so, anyway, I, there's that bit of embarrassment. I, I just, I also, you know, and I feel like I said this on day one, you know, this is bing, right? <Laugh>, like, shouldn't that have been the level set on this? Like, I, I just, whatever. So in the week set in the past week, cuz I guess we're doing this week by week now. Right. it's been really interesting watching Microsoft's response to all this. I it is clear to me that they are almost giddy with the attention that they're getting mm-hmm. <Affirmative> over a product like, I think someone Richard might have said earlier, but we just spent 20 years ignoring, and now Yeah. It has gotten more attention in the past week or two or three, whatever it's been than it has in its entire existence. Like all of a sudden it's a going concern, you know?

(00:59:00):
And okay. There's been a lot of overreaction inside and outside of Microsoft. You know, they, after this thing started going off the rails, after two long conversations, Microsoft said, well, fine, we'll just we'll just we'll just lower the, you know, we'll, we'll lower the amount of time you can talk to this thing at a time and that will that We'll, we won't let the crazy come out. It's like, I I, this morning I described as to Brad as like, you're sitting next to someone at a bar who's pounding drinks and the conversation is fantastic in the beginning mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But then it gets really weird and eventually you should just get up and leave. You can't, you don't just keep talking to these people and you certainly don't make decisions based on anything they tell you at this point. And that's kind of what Bing AI is like

Rich Campbell (00:59:43):
To me. I I did have a chance to talk to a couple of folks on the inside of Microsoft, like, what the heck is going on? Yeah. And we, and we, they talk about this thing called the token cash. Right? So, I mean, each time, this is about how we simulate context, and I'm using that word very deliberately because no intelligence, right? <Laugh> It is simulating context by taking what you, what it previ you previously said, and it previously responded in tokenizing it so that it can include it in its subsequent responses. We

Paul Thurrott (01:00:12):
Are so easily duped.

Rich Campbell (01:00:13):
Yeah. And the token duped cash is only so big.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:17):
Let me give you an example that actually verifies what you just, or is an example of what you just said. Last week on the show, I, I did a very small demo where I used Notion AI to say something. What would be some interesting topics for a Microsoft podcast and reading through its response other than the, you know, <laugh> overwriting like a kid would do in high school. I could see that it was very clearly taking information from my own notes. It was just stealing from me right there. Sure. Well, it could, so I showed this to my wife and I said, let's see what it does when we, it has no prompting whatsoever. Absolutely worthless. I it's absolutely worthless. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It, and in that case it was something like, what would, you know, what are some fun things to do in Mexico City? And it's like Mexico City is a history, you know, is rich in history and culture, and there's great places to eat. And you should be sure to explore the city streets <laugh> and say, it was like, it didn't, it just came up with nothing. It was just nonsense.

Rich Campbell (01:01:13):
Which again, it's, it's just a search engine. It's going and finding a page that seemed to fit your, what you were saying. Right. Right. I also had the chance to read Jordy rib Ass's la latest commentary on that. And he's one of the, the VPs in the AI big space. And, and he's finally sort of described how they built this thing. And it's like they were not rushing this, they've been working on this for quite some time. The question is, why did they release it?

Paul Thurrott (01:01:42):
Yeah. That is the question. Yep.

Rich Campbell (01:01:44):
And I, and I think it's, I think it's the a hundred million users, I

Paul Thurrott (01:01:47):
Think, by the way, I I don't think you've ever said anything in your life that is more right than that. Yeah. I, that that is absolutely correct. I mean, the numbers on Bing are so small. Yeah. And they see, they, they, we can latch onto the success and ride this and how much 1%, 2% share. It's all it takes means them. Yeah. It's, it's astonishing.

Rich Campbell (01:02:06):
Yeah. And anytime you can poke in, in some spaces it's just like poke and Google is a good day.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:12):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was a perfect storm for them too, because Google just coughed up a hair ball at exactly the right time.

Rich Campbell (01:02:20):
But they're both hairballs. The question is what happens next? And that's really my concern. The correct thing to happen now is that one or the other of them blanks is says, Hey, this is quite ready for a hard time. I want to take that down. And then the other one will immediately. So now there's probably gonna be a stare off and say, who's gonna blink first? And in some ways, Google has the least to lose.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:40):
Yeah. Microsoft's talking like, they're not gonna do that. That's my fear here. You

Leo Laporte (01:02:43):
Don't think these get

Rich Campbell (01:02:47):
The data sets, the the datasets not that good in the first place. I mean, that's the essential process. I mean, I

Paul Thurrott (01:02:51):
Think

Leo Laporte (01:02:52):
It, it's too expensive for it to do it and to grow it in real time. You can't, you can't keep,

Rich Campbell (01:02:57):
Well it, sadly, you did this as a PR play and now it's creating bad pr. Yeah. What do you

Leo Laporte (01:03:03):
Do? Take

Paul Thurrott (01:03:03):
It down. By the way, that might play into the a hundred million thing as well. Yeah. Well, this thing can't, you know, Microsoft says, you know, we improve this thing using the information we glean from what people are doing, searching and blah, blah, blah, whatever. There aren't that many people doing that on bank. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> this is bringing more people to the service. They may have prag, well pragmatically is the wrong word, but they may have gone live with this thing specifically defeated information and habits and behaviors. 

Rich Campbell (01:03:28):
Which, which is always useful. And if you do try and use it as a search tool, sometimes it gets reasonable results.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:35):
So <laugh>, I will, you know what,

Leo Laporte (01:03:37):
Remind me

Paul Thurrott (01:03:37):
What I said to a commenter on my website that the bar should be higher for search results. Yeah. Than sometimes you

Leo Laporte (01:03:44):
Should be a hundred percent. I agree.

Rich Campbell (01:03:45):
But it never has been.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:47):
No, I agree

Rich Campbell (01:03:48):
With you. Yeah. We, the, the, that's Google's vulnerable because its search has gotten quite poor. It's

Leo Laporte (01:03:52):
Gotten bad.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:53):
That's right. It's been in certified. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:03:55):
Absolutely true. So it reminds me of IBM's Watson, which when it was released, got a lot of attention mm-hmm. <Affirmative> right. One jeopardy. Right. And and

Paul Thurrott (01:04:06):
Didn't it one was this different from the chess playing?

Leo Laporte (01:04:09):
Yeah. This is a different one. Yeah. But, but related Deep Blue was also Yeah. Watson was deep blue. Yeah. Okay. In deep blue one, the same way Watson won Jeopardy, which is by cleverly tailoring the algorithm for the exact purpose,

Rich Campbell (01:04:27):
It was the prune decision tree. Right. And

Leo Laporte (01:04:29):
So it was train

Rich Campbell (01:04:31):
An over and minus one problem. As soon as the dataset gets too big, they tip over.

Leo Laporte (01:04:35):
Right. Right. So, so nevertheless, great success. This is the last AI spring, by the way, in, in the long run, Watson, even though despite lots of advertising and IBM really pushing it, has they, they discontinued it because Yeah. It, I mean, for a while there were stories about how it does better than a radiologist reading X-rays. No. Jesus. It turned out not and then now it's gone. And I think that's kind of, you think it's gonna be like that? Or is, is this yet another one of those?

Paul Thurrott (01:05:05):
Don't think, I don't think it goes away. I, I, in fact, I think if what will happen is we just won't talk about it anymore because these capabilities will just be everywhere. You know, there, it,

Rich Campbell (01:05:16):
It only, only if it works, you only talk about it when it breaks. Right. Yeah. And now again, artificial intelligence is how you describe a technology and it doesn't work. When it does work, it gets a new name. Right. Right. You start calling 'em large language models. Yeah. But, and I would argue the counter to when of these two gonna take this thing down is who's going to double down? And the logical one in that case is Google. Yeah. It makes Google the, the thing that Google now is to release a different AI related product. Right. A music generator or, you know, the ne a next generation, I think they already, but I would think something different.

Leo Laporte (01:05:51):
Google research released to a music generator in which is te It's so bad. It's awful.

Paul Thurrott (01:05:56):
Yeah. I, I, that was, and the headlines for that were off the charts too. It was like, oh, you're, you know, this is gonna be the best music you've

Leo Laporte (01:06:02):
Ever seen. We've all read a lot of sci-fi and this is mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, like VR something, the metaverse we're all like so primed for and turns out to be a lot harder to do. Yeah. True. And

Rich Campbell (01:06:14):
We want science fiction to come true.

Leo Laporte (01:06:16):
Right. And we don't have flying cars either, I might add. Yeah. Right. So, but I do think, yeah, I think you're right, Richard, that, you know, there's, there's applications for this and you just rename it. You, you know, and you're gonna see it slowly seep into our mm-hmm. <Affirmative> day-to-day.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:31):
Well, Spotify today released an AI based, again, everything's AI based playlist creation tool. You feed it some up to 30 artists and it creates music based on the music you like, which is kind of what we've been doing with music services since there have been music services. Just like, we've been doing things like spellchecking grammar, checking word processors since there have been those products, you know? But now it's always ai. I think the reason they don't call the stuff machine learning or large language models or whatever, is that AI is something that everyone both understands and completely does not understand as a term. It's just a familiar term. And people like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's marketing super computers, you know,

Leo Laporte (01:07:09):
But well, okay, it's marketing. I mean, we've, we've had this conversation before. There's algorithms that are labeled AI and there's actual machine learning and, and there's actual, you know, yep. I won't say ai, but there's actual machine learning where the machine, but this is its own rules

Paul Thurrott (01:07:25):
Really. Pedantic people say, well, this is an ai, well this is an ai, you know? Yeah. Okay. Whatever. There's a

Leo Laporte (01:07:31):
Difference between a program that, a computer that a person wrote and a, and a program that the computer generated on its own. And that would be, to me, that's the

Paul Thurrott (01:07:40):
Divide on its own is a bit of a stretch. Right. Because that's the point of <laugh>. I, it, it,

Leo Laporte (01:07:45):
Well, no, alpha blue alpha go taught itself how to play chess. Right. By they all, it, all they gave it was the rules. It taught itself how to play chess and became the best chess playing computer ever. Much better than the human in a matter of hours by playing billions of games against itself. Sure. That to me is, is machine learning

Paul Thurrott (01:08:04):
<Laugh> H we approved the 10,000 hour thing.

Leo Laporte (01:08:07):
<Laugh> Well, 10 billion hour thing.

Rich Campbell (01:08:09):
You gotta, you gotta, but if you keep following the Alpha project, then you get into the interesting stuff like playing chess, ping, go, whatever, great demos mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but alpha folds actually important. Right, right. And that, and that's that same, and we're now gonna take years to validate what alpha fold produced in its last round of tests, because our current system, perfect example, protein folding is just not as sophisticated. Perfect

Leo Laporte (01:08:31):
Example. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:08:32):
Yeah. But there, but it's also a very rare example, Leo, like to actually have built software that has generated results that very likely are Right. And a, we don't know how they, exactly. How they generate them. They're gonna be difficult to prove and have massive consequences if they are Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:08:50):
Right.

Leo Laporte (01:08:52):
Honestly, the biggest, to me, part of this story is an indictment of modern journalism. It's driven by link bait, it's driven by clicks.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:04):
It's up, but it's driven by, this is like the conversation we had around fi the financial impact of covid versus post covid and how these companies should have known better. I don't understand that. And then you get journalists who should know better go into a room like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. Instead of using their brains and thinking for, you know, I, it, it's so disappointing when people who should know better don't,

Leo Laporte (01:09:27):
You know, I would submit they know better, but there's such pressure to generate views that they pander.

Rich Campbell (01:09:34):
Yeah. It's, the tough part is it is actually profitable.

Leo Laporte (01:09:36):
It's very, look, this is what happened to, to network news. You know, look at your local, local

Paul Thurrott (01:09:43):
News. It's,

Leo Laporte (01:09:45):
It's, it's profitable. And ultimately these are all profit institutions, you know, this is what is great, because we don't want any profit. We can't make money to save our lives. So you're not gonna hear that link bait here. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:59):
Yeah. Well, it's, it's sort of, yeah. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:10:01):
Yeah. No, actually, this is serious. This is an advantage we have because there's no, there's no SEO in anything that we do <laugh>. Right. You have to go out, find the podcast, download it, listen to something that's gonna go at least two hours to hear it. There's no link bait that can make you listen to this show. Right. So there's no incentive for us to, to, to write a headline that says, you know, you won't believe what Bing did now,

Paul Thurrott (01:10:33):
<Laugh>. Yep. And then you gotta make like a graphic for YouTube where we're all like this, like

Leo Laporte (01:10:39):
Yeah. That's, by the way, that's the problem with YouTube. Exactly. Stupid

Paul Thurrott (01:10:42):
Graphics.

Leo Laporte (01:10:42):
Yeah. That's, that's the big problem with YouTube. It's all Link page. It's, it's all link. But it, but the success of YouTube is pushing everybody else in that direction. You don't think the Verge is looking at YouTube going, well, we gotta do more of that. Sure. True. So, I mean, this is an indictment more of our, and not even of journalism of our society. We are a d d <laugh>. We just want, you know, what's next? What's the next thing I'm seeing now on my Amazon Echo? You won't believe this 10 year old sports writer. It's like, it's <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (01:11:12):
Oh yeah. He's almost as good as AI

Leo Laporte (01:11:15):
<Laugh>. Yeah. They got tired of the AI story writing sports. Right. So now that they got a 10 year old anyway, but I do, so I think that's our job is to, is to say what, so what is really going on here? And what is it gonna look like next year in five years and a 10 years? And that's where I,

Paul Thurrott (01:11:32):
I just like you guys of history, I, you can't always be right. But it's, you know, to me, the central, well, the journalism thing is the tough thing for me. And because I'm sort of in this area, I, I always have problems with this, but I've been covering Microsoft for almost 30 years, and my initial reaction remains the same today as it was when, you know, when it first happened. Which is, you know, this is thing. Right. <laugh>, like, I mean, well,

Rich Campbell (01:11:57):
The other page look at it is, is the best thing about pessimism is you usually write and occasionally pleasantly

Leo Laporte (01:12:01):
Surprised. Devork taught me that <laugh>, no one ever wants a mouse <laugh>. The problem is when you're spectacularly wrong, people do remember that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> So true. Try not to be spectacularly wrong. Just a little wrong.

Paul Thurrott (01:12:17):
Those with the territory

Leo Laporte (01:12:18):
<Laugh>. So there's something here. Yes. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. but it's not what you think it is. 

Paul Thurrott (01:12:28):
I, look, I, we've raised all the same issues that I, I have nothing new to add. I still them releasing it when they did. I think we are getting toward the reasons. I don't think what Microsoft has done here is any better or worse than anything. Any you're gonna see anywhere else, whether it's Google or anywhere else. I think unfortunately, or whatever, the real, the realistic outcome here is AI is already becoming part of everything. It just is. Spotify's doing it, notion's doing it. Opera opera's doing it. Microsoft's gonna do it everywhere. It's gonna be everywhere. This is it. We're gonna, we're gonna be assisted by something that they're gonna market as ai. You can call it, you know, whatever. It can, it, it is what it is. But it is it is like everything else in tech, there's there are definitely gonna be benefits. And all those people, like I keep using the same example, who struggle to make a PowerPoint presentation. They're gonna have a lot of help with that stuff. And that, I honestly, it's kind of hard to complain about that. No, it's, that's cause you're a PowerPoint master and you're looking at all these idiots <laugh> who have no idea what they're doing. <Laugh>. And, you know, I, so this, it is kind of, you know, pros and cons of everything.

Rich Campbell (01:13:33):
Well, and back to that line about this is the N F T for cloud, right? Yeah. NFT is about selling crypto, all of these lounge language

Leo Laporte (01:13:41):
Models about selling cloud mm-hmm. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative> Sure. And so actually ends it. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:13:46):
Yeah. When your customer is unhappy and it's costing you a lot of money, then you'll give it up.

Paul Thurrott (01:13:51):
Is this truly an example of there is no such thing as bad press?

Rich Campbell (01:13:56):
Absolutely. Especially when, when people when bad press looks like good press. Right. I was poorly written articles that are very positive

Paul Thurrott (01:14:06):
Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:14:06):
And incorrect.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:08):
Right.

Rich Campbell (01:14:09):
The great thing about writing bad stories in the first place is you get to do it twice. Yeah. Once when you did it wrong. And once when you try and correct it.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:16):
Yeah. Yeah. So binging insults a journalist and they become upset. And now it's like, wow, that thing must be pretty sophisticated to have upset that guy <laugh>. You know, it's like not exactly, but Okay. <Laugh>

Rich Campbell (01:14:28):
Upset for the clicks.

Paul Thurrott (01:14:29):
Yeah. Right. All right. Well, your, our obligatory AI section is not a complete

Leo Laporte (01:14:36):
Thing. Well, you know, there, okay, one more thing, which is, yesterday the Supreme Court heard arguments in Gonzalez versus Google, and a lot of what it was about was algorithms. Right. And amazingly, I thought the justices seemed to understand that you have to have algorithms that everything's an algorithm. I was really impressed. Kagan Kavanaugh who has been prepared to, you know, Mr. I like beer actually was pretty sha pretty savvy. And they said, well, you don't have search without algorithms. You don't have anything without algorithms. Right. they, they kind of got, went down a rabbit hole trying to figure out who creates thumbnails on YouTube. Sure. And I'm yelling at the, I'm listening to this and yelling at the Supreme Court the whole time, but I,

Paul Thurrott (01:15:22):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:15:23):
They, they essentially understood. And really in a way, algorithms, especially self improving algorithms kind of are ai. Right? I mean, Google gets better and better because it gets more input about what you click. And that doesn't need a human to intervene. Page rank doesn't need a human, it's collecting signals. Mm-Hmm.

Rich Campbell (01:15:45):
<Affirmative> it also, but it also has human intervention routinely. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:15:48):
Advertising. Well, not only that, I remember at the very early days before they took advertising, Serge Brynn telling me every day, <laugh>, I, I don't mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I, I'm, I'm dimly remembering this. So it roughly was like, I go down in the basement at Google and I look at, at the end of the printouts to see

Paul Thurrott (01:16:06):
The tape coming The last

Leo Laporte (01:16:07):
Ball. Yeah. Look at the end of the printouts to see what we have to fix. And then we type, we, we tune the code a little bit, and then it goes on. There's always,

Paul Thurrott (01:16:16):
You see why they brought him back to figure out this AI thing. Cause that guy is still totally living in the future,

Leo Laporte (01:16:20):
Turnkey's back down in the basement looking at the printouts. And I, I think it's about time.

Paul Thurrott (01:16:25):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:16:27):
All right. Enough about that. But I do, you know, and we are gonna talk, I should mention the next show this week in Google, we've got Kathy Gillis on, who is in the Supreme Court today and yesterday for those arguments. Oh, nice. She had written an amicus brief on behalf of Tech Dirt for Gonzalez. So you in, by the way, in favor of Google, not against Google. So yeah. She will have a, this is lawyers' point of view

Paul Thurrott (01:16:55):
For the entire industry, right? Oh, yeah. It's for us, this is the rare case of it's kind of a weird, it's, it's a weird transposition. Like you've got this, the biggest companies on earth have so much responsibility and much power, but <laugh>, are they responsible for everything that every single person writes and happens to go out through their service?

Leo Laporte (01:17:17):
And, and furthermore, it's not just about the biggest companies, it's about our chat room. It's about our discord, it's about our forums and your forums and your comments.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:26):
No, it's, it's a weird, it, it, you have to, you go up to the big ice, right? I mean, for, that's how it, you know. I know. Yeah. That's how it happens. But Google

Leo Laporte (01:17:32):
And Facebook and can handle, and Microsoft can handle any adverse effect that

Paul Thurrott (01:17:38):
This. Right. But it's, we can't, it's gonna

Leo Laporte (01:17:40):
Right. I'll take it all. I'll have to take it all down. If I can get sued for anything that is said on my site, or anytime I take something down because of what's, I can get sued. There's no sight.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:49):
Yeah. But this, even in new

Rich Campbell (01:17:51):
Debate, actions seem to be, sorry. This is the common carrier debate, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:17:54):
Yes, that's right.

Rich Campbell (01:17:56):
Ex except for the fact, and this is where you get back to the algorithm parts except for the fact that, you know, true common carriers have no input into what is transmitted. Hmm. And these services shape what you see.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:11):
Actually, this is a huge problem because you know, Facebook specifically feeds you nonsense, and <laugh> does it to get clicks and

Rich Campbell (01:18:21):
Ads. They're

Paul Thurrott (01:18:22):
An participant. And

Leo Laporte (01:18:23):
That's why the conversation is about the algorithm. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But you, but you can't, you can't, you can't cut the baby in half without killing the baby. You can't, well, you can't say, well, let's take out algorithms and preserve Section two 30, then there's no internet.

Rich Campbell (01:18:40):
Yeah. I think, I think the, the prosecution in this case has overreached because exactly that, turning it into a defense of the internet will always win you the day. Yep. The real thing here is this you know, that you are responsible for

Paul Thurrott (01:18:54):
It's almost algorithm. It's almost intense. In other words, are you a blind carrier of other people's thoughts? Yeah. Or are you participating actively to make money? Yeah. Which is what Facebook is doing, for sure.

Rich Campbell (01:19:04):
And so, I mean, the, the answer here might be transparency in the algorithm. Right. Right. I mean, I've, I've laughed for ages. Like Facebook could have been the best source of news ever. Yeah. If you had shown the source of every bit of data that you're bringing in and who's paying for it and so forth, so that you effectively did what democracy requires, which is that informed populace. Right. You, you would be a benefit to society and perhaps also be profitable. Probably outrageous is more

Paul Thurrott (01:19:33):
Profit. That would be quite a world, wouldn't it? Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:19:35):
<Laugh>. But I, I would also point out being AI does provide footnotes to everything it says. Yeah. That, that while not adequate or at least an effort towards showing sourcing

Paul Thurrott (01:19:47):
Sure. And maybe a reaction to what's come before them. Right. the, the things we were just describing,

Rich Campbell (01:19:54):
You know,

Paul Thurrott (01:19:56):
That's fine. I mean, it's fine.

Rich Campbell (01:19:58):
It's not fine. We need to be better. I'm,

Paul Thurrott (01:20:00):
I'm well meant by fine. I find it's not the same as good or ideal. It's Yeah, <laugh>, it's fine. It's, you know, it's, it's a step. It's

Rich Campbell (01:20:06):
A step. We are all surprised that the prosecution hasn't duped the Supreme Court.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:12):
Yes.

Rich Campbell (01:20:12):
The Supreme Court is at least

Paul Thurrott (01:20:14):
Now fact. That's exactly,

Leo Laporte (01:20:15):
Honestly, they did I? Yes. Because there is no merit in this case at all. Why would No, why would you blame YouTube for ISIS killing your daughter if there's no connection? They're not assert, they're not even asserting a connection. So and

Rich Campbell (01:20:28):
Feel, but now the ruling will serve to protect the internet, ultimately. Well, but that's question the

Leo Laporte (01:20:32):
Other side of this, and this is the first question I'm gonna ask Kathy Ellis, is why the Supreme Court Grant certi in this, they should not have been reviewing this case. It's not a good case. So why are they reviewing it? And that's what I think scares everybody. What did some of the justices see this as an opportunity to kill two 30? Maybe? I don't know. Yep. So far the arguments,

Paul Thurrott (01:20:52):
That's where thank God, but you can never tell whether arguments. That's why I've been paying attention to it.

Leo Laporte (01:20:57):
Yeah. It is fascinating. Yeah. Yep. All right. Moving right along, because I know you really care about Microsoft 365.

Paul Thurrott (01:21:05):
Well, thank you. I do. Le and Teams. So let's talk teams. Well, the Verge has reported, and I can confirm that Microsoft in March is gonna release something. They're calling Teams 2.0. It is moving off of whatever electron, nightmare they're on and on to react instead. So it's a lot less ram, a lot less cpu, so a lot better battery life, et cetera, et cetera. That's pretty much a hundred percent of what I know about it. <Laugh>. So personally and I don't think the Verge goes into too much more detail, but I think we could all agree on two things when it comes to Teams. Probably the most popular platform. Microsoft has created a long, long time, and the client is the biggest pig of a disaster and needs to be overhauled to be more efficient. So this is a good thing.

Rich Campbell (01:21:55):
Try. Yeah. Trying to make us new sovereign app, trying to displace Outlook, which is really what you're trying to do here. Yeah. To be the first place you look is not an easy thing. Yep. I am confused as to why this was necessary. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Microsoft owns Electron. It's part of GitHub for crying out loud. Like why, why I expected the moment that acquisition went through, it's like the Windows team is gonna sit with the electron team and Electron's going to get fix it. Great. Yep. And, and everybody will benefit. And the fact that that didn't happen, that's an interesting story. Like what the heck is the problem? Fixing

Paul Thurrott (01:22:28):
Electron? The something that won't be too comfortable for a lot of people because React comes from Facebook, if I'm not mistaken. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it might just be that React is just superior.

Rich Campbell (01:22:38):
Apparently it's

Leo Laporte (01:22:39):
Also pro gotta be a legacy thing. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:43):
But

Rich Campbell (01:22:44):
A legacy to Electron. It's not that

Leo Laporte (01:22:46):
Old. No. But a lot of programs use Electron non-Microsoft.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:49):
Well, the Pro, so obviously the problem with Electron is that you're basically shipping the web browser, right. And the products, right. <Laugh>. Right. So I, I think we talked about this last week, but you know, this notion that I already have brave with 43 tabs open. What I don't need is another rendition of it in teams with another 43 tabs. It's equivalent. Yeah. And

Leo Laporte (01:23:08):
Maybe's done at Microsoft's best interest to fix Electron. Cause it makes everybody else's apps slower. Right. While they That's right. While they, while they move to React <laugh>. Right. So if they do a React JavaScript version, this is, this is not electron, this is something different. That's right. And better they're changing the underpinnings.

Paul Thurrott (01:23:23):
Yeah. Lightweight. And this is, and this is important because Teams is the center of work for so many people now, 270 million or whatever it is. And like Richard kind of implied there is essentially the new outlook. It's the, you know, outlook was always famous because you would, it would be the first thing you started with in the workday. And the last thing he left on and you, you know, they created like this, you know, your today view and all this stuff, and it was the center of your universe. It was the way you communicated with the people you worked with. You kept your calendar and so forth, all your contacts. And I, I can't believe they haven't added email to teams. It's like the one thing <laugh>, it's like, just do it and get rid of Outlook, you know? Yeah. Microsoft is smart in this case.

(01:24:06):
I, they, they, they, I think they knew going into this that there was a younger generation of people that would react, pardon the pun, if you will, to a chat-based communi workplace communication, you know, collaboration client, and that there was this old school group that basically just has to die and that will never give up Outlook. And so, you know, they, they kind of promoted both of these things side by side. And I, I'm sure there are still many, many more Outlook users than there are teams, users. But teams is a force of nature. It's an application platform. I mean, it's, it's humongous.

Leo Laporte (01:24:40):
Yeah. I got, I, I get reached out when I get reached to a Microsoft people. I know what age bracket they're in by what tool used to reach out. Yeah, exactly. Right. And isn't it the case that almost everybody's using Webmail now? I mean, is who's using

Paul Thurrott (01:24:53):
Clients? I know, I don't, I don't know. That's a good, I don't know.

Leo Laporte (01:24:57):
Say still use Outlook and I feel alone. You are old and alone. Even better. Yes.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:02):
I was gonna say you, I don't mean to say you should feel alone, <laugh>, but if you, I don't mean it like that, but yeah, I mean,

Leo Laporte (01:25:10):
I would say anybody under 35 is just using web mail and most people over 35

Paul Thurrott (01:25:17):
Are using and barely then, I mean Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:25:20):
Or they're not using mail

Paul Thurrott (01:25:21):
At all kicking and screaming into it cuz the work requires it. But

Leo Laporte (01:25:24):
Is mail that's not what itself kind of outmoded the idea of Yeah. Email. Yeah, because they use chat instead, right? They use,

Paul Thurrott (01:25:32):
Well, it's like asking, is the Telegraph outmoded? I don't know. Sometimes I like to, we

Leo Laporte (01:25:35):
Still get a telegram and

Paul Thurrott (01:25:37):
Not get an answer for two more days. I don't know. <Laugh>, you know, like it still works. I used

Leo Laporte (01:25:42):
To, one of the, there were a few things that were birds under the saddle doing the radio show. Yeah. You know, the guy calling in said, my AOL mail has stopped working, is one. Sure.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:54):
But did you recommend that he goes to outlook, express,

Leo Laporte (01:25:58):
<Laugh>? Honestly, Hotmail, anytime somebody had a problem with it was like, oh God, please. No.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:05):
It's like, I, I use Hotmail and I spell it Capital H. Capital T, capital M, capital L. Cuz that's where the name comes from.

Leo Laporte (01:26:13):
<Laugh> Hot. Did Hotmail invent web email interfaces? I think they did, right? Pretty much. That was the very first.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:20):
Maybe they were, they were one of the early ones. Yeah. And we gotta, you know, it's, it's so long ago people forget this. Microsoft bought this company, right? This was a startup. They

Rich Campbell (01:26:28):
Still own the domain. Yeah. I still have folks that have hot

Leo Laporte (01:26:31):
Hotmail.Com.

Paul Thurrott (01:26:32):
Oh, I have I my primary email addresses,

Leo Laporte (01:26:35):
And it took 'em a long time to move it to Azure. Right. I mean, for a long time Hotmail was running

Paul Thurrott (01:26:40):
To exchange or whatever. Yeah. I mean, it was on Amazon. Well actually it took 'em a long time just to move it to Windows. It was on Free BSD for a long time.

Leo Laporte (01:26:47):
<Laugh> free. That's right. It was on free

Paul Thurrott (01:26:48):
BSD in the beginning. Right. I mean, there were a lot of transitions, <laugh> for this product. Wow. Over the years. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:26:55):
So in business, people still use email clients, but even here Sure. We're a Google Workspace house. Right? So all our email is on Gmail, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's, you could use a client,

Rich Campbell (01:27:06):
If you're full in M 365 and you send out a calendar invite from Outlook, it will make it into a teams' invite automatically. Like a fight to stop that

Leo Laporte (01:27:16):
<Laugh> that tells you something right there. Yeah. <laugh>. That, that, that completely tells you. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:27:22):
Telling that in the Gmail client, there's the, the whatever they call it this year, Google Meet or whatever is, is a, is a primary UI in there. I don't, I don't use Outlook, the desktop client anymore. But, or I mean, I really haven't ever, I guess <laugh>, but I don't know that that's the case. But like I said, I, I'm, I'm really surprised email is not like a tab in teams, just bring it in. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, what's the difference at

Leo Laporte (01:27:48):
This point? Make it a web tab. Oh, I already

Paul Thurrott (01:27:49):
Don't calendar anymore. My teams calendar's pretty

Rich Campbell (01:27:51):
Nice. But you know, it might make teams fat and

Leo Laporte (01:27:54):
Slow. <Laugh>. Yeah. Well,

Paul Thurrott (01:27:56):
Yeah, we wouldn't want that. Goodness. Well, <laugh>,

Leo Laporte (01:28:00):
Hey, what was the deal? I was seeing a lot of messages about outlook.com turning off its spam protection for a

Paul Thurrott (01:28:07):
While. Yeah. So that, that has passed.

Leo Laporte (01:28:10):
Yeah, it

Paul Thurrott (01:28:10):
Was brief. Was it? Yeah. They had a day or two where it appeared the spam filter just went south and stopped working.

Leo Laporte (01:28:17):
This is where I missed Twitter, because I'm sure there was a lot of traffic on Twitter.

Paul Thurrott (01:28:21):
Oh yeah. No, you missed

Leo Laporte (01:28:22):
Even masked it on has quite a bit of traffic, but I bet

Paul Thurrott (01:28:24):
Twitter was, let's just say that the only thing worse and outlook.com is outlook.com without a working spam filter.

Leo Laporte (01:28:30):
Oh. <laugh>. You know, so did the spam filter retroactively get rid of that spam? Or is it still sitting in your inbox?

Paul Thurrott (01:28:38):
No, I don't know about that. I don't know.

Leo Laporte (01:28:40):
It's still sitting in your inbox, I would guess. I do

Paul Thurrott (01:28:43):
Know that it was fixed. And I, to my knowledge, Microsoft has not publicly addressed this issue, but it was somewhere between a day and two that it,

Leo Laporte (01:28:50):
Geez.

Rich Campbell (01:28:52):
Just, just a moment for regular people to find out how horrible the internet

Leo Laporte (01:28:56):
Still really. Yeah. You know, they should do this yearly. They should have a, you know, a yearly no spam filtering day, no filter day. Yeah. Just so you know what you're missing

Paul Thurrott (01:29:04):
Or not, you can do the same thing on your phone. Instead of using like a major service like Verizon or T-Mobile, like just move to Mint Mobile and then see what kind of like text messages you start getting. It's hilarious.

Leo Laporte (01:29:13):
<Laugh> it's amazing. Mint Mobile is the sponsor. Paul, don't don't, don't, Dan, don't dis them too

Paul Thurrott (01:29:19):
Much. I love Mint Mobile, but I mean, they just don't have, they don't have any spam.

Leo Laporte (01:29:22):
They don't do the yet. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember that. When I first got my MIT mobile phone, I guess the, the sim the phone number was owned previously by an avid.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:33):
Every phone number has been owned previously.

Leo Laporte (01:29:34):
Yeah. Well they are, but this one was owned ad by an avid Trump supporter and I was getting 20 or 30 messages a day asking for money, not just from Trump, from all sorts of sources. A, you know, QAN on stuff, all kinds of crazy stuff. And then interspersed in, it was a regular message of you have defaulted on your student loans <laugh>. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:59):
I keep getting PayPal requests with the a text message. Those are entertaining. I owe, I owe a guy named Ernesto $300.

Leo Laporte (01:30:06):
I think they may, mint may have fixed this cuz swamp Rats saying he doesn't get any spam messages on his MIT mobile. They're riding on T-Mobile. They could use the same, you know, what's changed? I think that they don't. Okay. What has changed, I think with Stir and Shaken is a lot of these spammers, it's no longer

Paul Thurrott (01:30:23):
Luke by the way, this person, if he's using a pixel phone pixel in

Leo Laporte (01:30:27):
In, they do the phone, the hardware do it, do it as

Paul Thurrott (01:30:30):
Actually has Right. Spam filtering built in. If you have an I the worst combination is an iPhone cuz they do nothing with mint cuz they do nothing. So those two together, that's let's, if you wanna see what SPAM looks like, put an iPhone on Mint

Leo Laporte (01:30:43):
<Laugh>. That's what it was. An iPhone SE on min Mobile. But this was

Paul Thurrott (01:30:47):
Three, the, the wide world of the internet. <Laugh>? Yep. No, it's just, it's just

Leo Laporte (01:30:55):
Perfect. Swamp rat's on Android, Motorola G Power.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:59):
Yeah. Okay. I'm not sure where the line between Pixel and Android ends with regards to spam and stuff like that. I know the Pixel has enhanced capabilities pixels,

Leo Laporte (01:31:06):
But Pixel, yeah, Google does a lot in there.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:08):
Google probably does some good stuff on Android. Just Android proper, so. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:31:13):
Okay. Okay. Let's move, let's move right along here.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:16):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:31:17):
I've lost track of where we were. I went to my Outlook just to see if I had any spam and it was all from

Paul Thurrott (01:31:21):
Microsoft. Well actually, so we have a dev section here. This

Leo Laporte (01:31:25):
Richard

Paul Thurrott (01:31:25):
Favorite here. This is an interesting opportunity. Yeah. You probably knew about a bunch of this stuff ahead of Time Basket. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> <laugh>. So they pre, there's

Leo Laporte (01:31:34):
Previews, man, like you see 'em all the time. It's not like I'm calling

Paul Thurrott (01:31:38):
Anybody. I see. Alright. Well,

Leo Laporte (01:31:43):
Visual Studio 2022 is here.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:47):
Well, 2022 version 17.55.

Leo Laporte (01:31:50):
Why don't they just call it 2023? Am I

Paul Thurrott (01:31:52):
Asking the question? Yeah, you're asking, they don't really change the version number. I don't know what every two, three years to two,

Rich Campbell (01:31:58):
Three years. Okay. Yeah, it'll be probably a 24 24.

Leo Laporte (01:32:01):
Oh, okay. Okay. That makes sense. So it's gonna be 2022 for a while.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:04):
So version 17.5 is probably just the proper

Leo Laporte (01:32:07):
Version, but this is a big update, right? This is not a little,

Paul Thurrott (01:32:09):
This one's a big update. Yeah. Dotted grid. I haven't, yeah, and it depends on what you're doing. But I would say AI powered suggestions. Am I right? Oh, actually,

Rich Campbell (01:32:20):
Boy,

Leo Laporte (01:32:20):
That's kinda,

Paul Thurrott (01:32:21):
That one's kind of interesting cuz it's a little bit like copilot as you're writing code, it will actually watch you as you keep making edits to something and say, Hey, are you trying to do this?

Leo Laporte (01:32:31):
Oh, I'm very curious to try. This is the new thing is auto is autofill, or what do they call it? Inte, inte Tele IntelliSense

Paul Thurrott (01:32:38):
Sense or

Leo Laporte (01:32:39):
Tele, but using co-pilot,

Rich Campbell (01:32:40):
Tele a code

Leo Laporte (01:32:42):
Using co-pilot. So like you start typing something

Paul Thurrott (01:32:46):
Well, it, it's actually watch, in other words, you're working on, let's say you're doing some kind of iteration or whatever. Yeah. Like you can't ke don't quite get it right. And it will just pop up a little, you know, preview window above what you're doing and say, Hey,

Leo Laporte (01:32:57):
Did you, you know, you're calling a pointer, do you really mean to be doing that? Yeah. Actually is a good idea.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:02):
I

Rich Campbell (01:33:02):
Think. So this is something the editors, the editor has always been parsing your code as you type. It's

Leo Laporte (01:33:07):
A linter.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:07):
Yes, that's right. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:33:08):
Well it's, it's a, it's a compilers service. Like your RH is your, the, your line of code is full of squiggles. It

Paul Thurrott (01:33:14):
Does auto, you know, you object dot and then it will list all of the

Leo Laporte (01:33:18):
Yeah. Properties

Rich Campbell (01:33:20):
Complete. Yeah. That's IntelliSense, right? Yeah. This intelli code part is just starting to anticipate this is what you intend to do.

Leo Laporte (01:33:27):
That's interesting. Is it good? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Rich Campbell (01:33:31):
It's, yeah. It's, it's at the interesting phase right now.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:34):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm

Leo Laporte (01:33:35):
Very You don't have to take it. It's same, same. You don't have to take IntelliSense,

Rich Campbell (01:33:39):
You just hit tab and keep going. Yeah. The the big, the big one for me is, is is something I've certainly talked about on net rocks with various folks is mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you can still write C sharp, like it's C sharp two and it's interesting, it's now C sharp 11. So, right. The real sense I've gotten is if, and, and this is what, what I've mostly modernized is let's try writing code like it's 2005 and see if the thing's like, hey, you know, yeah, there's some link here. You know, like there are, there are lit string literals now. Like, you don't have to do this anymore.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:14):
I wonder if it's if that does anything to obste what you're trying to do. Like, I, I sometimes I find these modern code constructs to be a little harder to read because I'm just mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I'm not a professional developer for one thing. So I'm not completely up on all the changes that have occurred in any language or c

Rich Campbell (01:34:30):
Well, link is remarkably capable of obscuring code. Right? Yeah. Same the same way You can write a sequel query in a way that's just like, good luck figuring out what this does.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:39):
Yep, yep. No, even actually, I would say even before this, it would wanna format blocks of code in a certain way. It actually does this all the time. In fact, it does this in the Zael editor and it does this in the Shehar code editor. And it's like, no, no, I want it like this <laugh>, you know, and I wish there was a little setting where I could say, stop telling me this. I, I like the way I write it

Rich Campbell (01:34:59):
<Laugh>, you know, I I want my code the way I want my code back off. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:35:03):
Yeah, yeah. Yep. Cuz you can tab your way through like aza a line AZA will like, and spit it out over five lines. Like, no, I want <laugh>, I want, I wanna be able to read most of this in one page if I can. Yeah. Zael can be very verbose, you know, anyway.

Rich Campbell (01:35:17):
That's a, and I've got wide screens, but not too tall, so give me long

Paul Thurrott (01:35:20):
Lines. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. That's exactly right. Yep. Yeah, no different people, different styles. Like, I get that, it's fine, but it'd be kind of neat if there was like a coding style option. You know, like I, you could choose like how you like those things to be formatted. That's actually a really good idea. I should,

Rich Campbell (01:35:37):
I mean, and to me, 17.5 is about the native arm 64 stuff

Paul Thurrott (01:35:41):
Like That's right. Yeah. So the original release was the 2022 was the first to support ARM 64 natively. And then, if I understand this correctly, this includes a native arm 64 clang tool set, but only an L V M. Yeah. So basically native compilation on M 64. So does that mean that compilation previously was emulated X 64? Yes. Or actually X 86?

Rich Campbell (01:36:06):
Probably. Possibly. I don't, I don't know. Sure. There's been a push for strictly RM 64 for a while. Yeah. but yeah, how the destruction sets actually map out said other problem entire again. Yeah, no, no, yeah. We're largely insulated from all this. Yep. But the, the clang tool set is more about it knows how to poke into L V M properly, so Yeah. Which means essentially run anywhere, including by the way, into web assembly.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:31):
Ooh.

Rich Campbell (01:36:32):
So web assembly uses L VM as a loader. So

Leo Laporte (01:36:36):
L l VM is a miracle of modern technology.

Rich Campbell (01:36:39):
Yeah. When you talk about what, it's

Paul Thurrott (01:36:41):
Not quite ai, but it's,

Rich Campbell (01:36:43):
You know, it's what does computing really run on? It really runs on LL vm. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:36:46):
Yeah. So tell people what that is. So clang is the compiler, but it doesn't compile to, to machine code. It's a C lang compiler. It doesn't compile this machine code. It compiles to, is it an intermediate code for LL vm?

Rich Campbell (01:37:01):
In fact, effectively, but listen, this is what C always offered, right? This was the point back in the, if you go back to the eighties, seventies, and eighties, right? It's like, hey, we've been writing an assembler, let's take a language above this that can actually then go to multiple assembly instruction sets. Right? Right. This is not that different. The CLRs is a higher abstraction from beyond that. But this, this was always important was, was stop worrying about the ex and not just the chip set, but the exact bio you've got the exact micro code you've got, like, this is where stuff fell down. You wanna, so, you know what, what sank the, the Blackberry. I had a team that was trying to build Blackberry apps in the nineties. It depended on what ROM version you had. You had to recompile a flipping app. If you don't have the abstraction, you're constantly in pain. Yeah. Your software breaks every time there's a fix in anything. And so, you know, it's just that LL VM ended up being the, the leveling off of, okay, well here's how we're gonna do this. After many different approaches over the years,

Leo Laporte (01:38:03):
And it's this brilliant guy, guy, guy that people consult Chris Latner, who Yeah. Who really is kind of the un one of the unsung heroes of modern computing. L L V M is low level virtual machine. So

Rich Campbell (01:38:14):
Yeah. Although they say it's not that anymore. <Laugh> Right. It's just l l v.

Paul Thurrott (01:38:19):
Right. I, I can't, I don't like when acronyms go non-crm.

Rich Campbell (01:38:23):
Yeah. Become, become a noun. Yeah. Like

Leo Laporte (01:38:24):
Ces, it's still the consumer electronic show. I'm sorry.

Rich Campbell (01:38:27):
It's not really a virtual machine. Right. You know, you can argue with it's low level or not. So it, it generates this thing called intermediary representation with does it

Leo Laporte (01:38:38):
Then get compiled further to machine code on the target platform? Yes. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:38:42):
Ultimately,

Leo Laporte (01:38:42):
Ultimately. So the reason I, you know, maybe I'm an old timer stuck in the good old days, but

Paul Thurrott (01:38:48):
Pascal, everyone uses less.

Leo Laporte (01:38:50):
Please used to compile, in fact, that was one of the strengths of Pascal and Delphi, was it compiled to a P machine, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which was a hardware, independent, intermediate language, but p code was always slow. I mean, that was always a disadvantage. It was like more like interpreted than compiled.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:06):
That was basic too, right? Visual Basic.

Leo Laporte (01:39:09):
Yeah. Basic never was never, it was always interpreted. But

Paul Thurrott (01:39:12):
I think until VB six, I think it was,

Rich Campbell (01:39:14):
Yeah. All, all the visual basics actually compiled. Yeah. It

Leo Laporte (01:39:17):
Is now

Rich Campbell (01:39:17):
In there against, against their own VV run time.

Leo Laporte (01:39:21):
Yeah. Okay. So it's using kind of a, a library, a DLL to

Rich Campbell (01:39:25):
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which by the way, still ships with Windows to this day. Right. VV runs, you see it everywhere. DLL never,

Paul Thurrott (01:39:31):
You're still updated every fricking month of your life through Windows update, whether you know it or not,

Rich Campbell (01:39:36):
It's there. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:39:37):
Yep. Does is Windows a big supporter of L vm? I always got the impression that was kind of everything but Windows was because don't you have C Lib and stuff like that?

Rich Campbell (01:39:46):
Yeah. My Microsoft's always had their own implementations, but LL VMs been a part of the c plus plus tools inside. Oh, okay. Okay. Studio for forever. Forever.

Leo Laporte (01:39:55):
Okay. Good. Yeah. Okay. Good. So very interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:40:01):
Yep. It, it's interesting to think about Studio modernizing, like we keep thinking about as this old tool. Like most people, especially young developers, you look at it and go, this is like sitting down in the copy of 7 47 going, what are all these switches doing? Right. And I'm like, what you're actually seeing is the political architecture of Microsoft here. <Laugh> every team that works on this product. That's really true. True. Wants a button on the screen. That's really true.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:28):
What I like about Visual Studio the most, what I do mostly with it is just install it is you know, it configure all the workloads I want. Yeah. And then you'll get the thing up and running and the first thing you have to do is look at the, or the right, this little Red Bell icon and it's like, no, you get two more things to install. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just do it <laugh>.

Rich Campbell (01:40:46):
And why are you asking me, why

Paul Thurrott (01:40:47):
Are you doing this? I, you know, I just told you what I wanted installed. If I said yes to this, let's do it. There are other, this week in this space the first preview version of.net eight has come out. And I gotta tell you, this blog post is possibly four to 6,000 words long. And I understood about 17 of those words, <laugh>.

Rich Campbell (01:41:08):
Really? I didn't think that post was all that

Paul Thurrott (01:41:10):
Long. I, what I meant by that is, obviously what I'm looking for in this list is here's what's new and there's literally a section called What's new right in this release, native a o t. Okay. I got that ahead of time comp or compilation. Yep. Yep. Okay. Good. Good. And then it, then it just kind of goes on from there. And I'm like, I don't quite understand <laugh> what a lot of this stuff is. It's a lot of, I don't know. It's very esoteric. 

Rich Campbell (01:41:35):
Yeah. I mean, the, they're obviously still working on.net Maui, right? Right. They are getting to, they, they're finally getting to some version features, some features now that are, are making it more robust. You know, 1.0 is always a tough version. It took 'em a while to get there. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:41:48):
Yeah. They sure did.

Rich Campbell (01:41:49):
By the way, I, I, I wrote this new talk, this Mono to Maui talk. Yeah. And by the end of writing it, I had far more empathy for why Maui was delayed as long as it was.

Paul Thurrott (01:41:58):
So I listened to your dot Iraqs episode with the panel discussion with yeah, David Orno and David, David Perkins. Right. David. Yeah. And yeah, I don't know. <Laugh>, I think David made a joke, like you know, we should have just started the over from scratch <laugh> <laugh>, you know, and yeah. You know I'm gonna be looking at Maui a little more closely soon. Yeah, it is, if you don't mind the subset of what's available out in the world, it's probably the easiest way to get going with when you I three, honestly, <laugh>. Yes.

Rich Campbell (01:42:35):
I, without a doubt if that, that's a weird thing to say.

Paul Thurrott (01:42:37):
Do I think so? You, right.

Rich Campbell (01:42:39):
Well, and it, and it just speaks to where things are living now. Yeah. I mean, and I pressed exactly on that in the Donna Rocks episode. It's like, who's using this and how are they using it? Right? Like, and you didn't hear about any cases where it's like, we need to be on Mac and Windows and Android and, and phone. It's like, it's mostly iPhone, Android.

Paul Thurrott (01:42:55):
Oh, yeah. I, I think the point of bringing it to the desktop is there, there's some minority of use cases where you might want the app on that system, and it's like you're, this thing's a mobile app. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and it's just gonna, you know, here's some, we'll make some small concessions that

Rich Campbell (01:43:08):
Can run on the desktop because it it, the idea that, I mean, we, we as developers love the idea, I wanna write this once and it runs absolutely everywhere. Yeah. Well, that's the dream. But, but ultimately that means you write it once and it sucks everywhere. That's right. Right. That's right. So you, it's gotta be good at something and Yeah. And so if it's a, if it's a customer facing thing, it's gotta be good at mobile and it can be mediocre elsewhere. Just drive people to mobile ultimately.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:29):
Completely agree. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:43:30):
Although you, you can't get away with not making a web client. And so the web client ends up being, that's actually the desktop product.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:36):
Oh, okay. I was gonna say that's the tricky bit in the Windows or Microsoft space, because micro, you know, Microsoft has Blazer and Yeah. Things that are called Blazer something, something. But and there's some inter-op there between Blazer and Maui, which is also another interesting <laugh> <laugh> advantage of

Rich Campbell (01:43:51):
Way over. Yeah. And it's probably not ripe yet. Like that part's coming.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm still looking into this stuff, but it, it's yeah, it has the feel of something that's gonna be really interesting in about two versions mm-hmm.

Rich Campbell (01:44:03):
<Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And it's the norm. I'm on my Docket is a show on Blazer United, which is part of.net eight.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:10):
That's

Rich Campbell (01:44:10):
Right. And, and so, and that speaks to this whole idea of what do I wanna run on a client? What do I wanna run a server?

Paul Thurrott (01:44:17):
Blazer United is like project reunion for <laugh>, for Blazer,

Rich Campbell (01:44:21):
<Laugh>. It's like what happened when Eastern Airlines and Western Airlines got together?

Paul Thurrott (01:44:24):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:44:26):
So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how all of that pans out, but Right. Like there's almost no reason to run these preview bits except for experimental purposes. Dot net seven is very well, very good.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:39):
Yes. Right, right, right. I yeah. Dot net eight will be a long term, whatever they call

Rich Campbell (01:44:44):
It. One of the lts.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:45):
Yeah. Long

Rich Campbell (01:44:45):
Term now, meaning three years, two

Paul Thurrott (01:44:47):
Years, or three years. Three or three.

Rich Campbell (01:44:49):
Yeah. Yeah. It's possible. It might be longer cuz it's getting a lot of pushback for the rapid iteration.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:54):
Yeah. So what are the other releases? 18 months? Is that the

Rich Campbell (01:44:58):
Yeah, so I mean, dot net six ends in is the lts version and it'll, and it'll end in November of 2024. And.Net seven, which is not the lts ends in like May of 2024.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:10):
Right. That's a little weird.

Rich Campbell (01:45:12):
Yeah. It's just like this, eh, do. And by the way,

Paul Thurrott (01:45:17):
ITEE for three every three years,

Rich Campbell (01:45:19):
<Laugh>. Yes. It, well, the reverse every other one for three years, right? Yeah. And they release every year.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:23):
Right. So I, I mean, I, I'm sorry I met the long term version every two years, but supportive for every Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's interesting. I, I was lemme see where we're in the notes before I move on to this mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Well, yeah, I'll just move on. So I, I've been kind of going across all these different developer topics and just examining, you know, doing short form things I looked at when UI three, for example, the Windows App sdk, and I'm always looking for answers, you know, in the Microsoft space, like we're, and when UI three is interesting, it's hard to figure out like, how do you, how do I, I have an app. How do I get add win UI three to it? Right. that story's a nightmare. Like that's you go, it might even be impossible. Yeah. It might just be impossible.

Rich Campbell (01:46:03):
Well, and and it's because of the consolidation of the, of the various stacks. Like you Yeah. You, you're better off going at it through Maui.

Paul Thurrott (01:46:11):
Right, right, right. And I, I can't imagine too many people are going to start a new project in the Windows app sdk. Like I feel like

Rich Campbell (01:46:19):
No, the UWP stuff is also threatened now. Yeah. That it's like, wait, I mean, yeah, there's so many

Paul Thurrott (01:46:27):
Exist basically just to migrate developers off of Uwp. I mean, it is uwp, but Yeah. You know, but,

Rich Campbell (01:46:34):
But this is versioning, this, I mean, WhenI is essentially, you know, been kicked out windows and it's more like living in the SDK lands. Yeah. That, that that Net three one sort of created a safe place for it to live. And then now Maui scooped it up and say, Hey, let me give you a single place to reach it

Paul Thurrott (01:46:50):
All. I always I try to reimplement my little notepad application in every environment. Right. Just cuz it's something I understand really well and it is humorous to me mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that using the default controls in the Windows app SDK that you have, you think about like a, an applic notepad. Of course in Windows 11 everything's curved. And of course when you I three writes to the default controls are all curved. Everything's curved. Yeah. So if you have a little text box, it's, you know, curved on the corners, like, like a search box would be in the start menu or whatever.

Rich Campbell (01:47:18):
Everything's a pill

Paul Thurrott (01:47:18):
Now. Everything's a pill. So that's, that's fun. That's fun and everything. But think about like Notepad, right? So you have like a, a top of the app and you get a menu bar and the bottom, you have like a status bar or whatever, but the middle, you get this giant text box. I can tell you what you don't wanna see is Curves <laugh> on that text box. And yet that's the default. You can fix that by the way. You can get rid of the curves, but

Rich Campbell (01:47:37):
It's I'll blame Windows 11 for

Paul Thurrott (01:47:38):
That. Yeah. Yep. It's just the Yeah. The Windows 11 era we live in. Yeah. So,

Rich Campbell (01:47:42):
But the rest of what's in.net eight is language esoteric. Like it gets pretty specific. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, pretty far down. And that's all this stuff's necessary for certain folks. It's gonna make them really happy. But Yeah, I wouldn't talk about them broadly.

Paul Thurrott (01:47:59):
I, I li also listened to your episode about functional programming in Shehar. Mm. Is there anything related to that in.net eight that we know about? Or not really?

Rich Campbell (01:48:10):
Not really. I mean, you're not seeing, well, a little, you seeing more of the streaming behaviors and things that are really great in FS Sharp.

Paul Thurrott (01:48:19):
Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:48:19):
And listen, I got nothing but love for FS Sharp. It's, but that is a, a, a relatively small group of folks that need those particular fe features that are doing well with them. But you are gradually seeing certain aspects of what makes F Sharp grape starting to appear in Sea Sharp to some degree. I mean, a lot of that stuff counts on functional re ency counts on immutability stuff. That's not default. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:48:44):
Not part of C Sharp. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:48:46):
Although, as Simon pointed out, like you can program sea sharp that way, like learning to work functionally changes the way you work in a, in, in C sharp. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's one of the reasons to go spend some time with other languages and get some styles that are useful.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:01):
The idea of like, like looping on a, like it, it's not Yes, no, it's yes. No, maybe <laugh>. Yeah. You know it's kind of an interesting concept. 

Rich Campbell (01:49:10):
That's just a preparation for everything. It's a quantum computer, I think.

Paul Thurrott (01:49:12):
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. It's, it's that's, that's where I'm gonna walk out the door. I'm, I'm gonna be done when that

Rich Campbell (01:49:17):
Happens. It's good <laugh>. It's all getting a little stranger. Yeah. yeah. It's, I'd been meaning to do that show for a while. Right. part of it just being, you know, polyglot is healthy and

Paul Thurrott (01:49:30):
Yeah, for sure.

Rich Campbell (01:49:31):
Yep. And, and that, that styles matter. Like a lot of what we thought about in object orientation that was important had more to do with the fact that we had one core and only so much memory. Sure. And now that we have lots of cores and ridiculous amounts of memory, it's like, you know, what's more important? Reliability,

Paul Thurrott (01:49:49):
Sustainable, not polymorphism. That's weird. 

Rich Campbell (01:49:51):
Yeah. Not so much

Leo Laporte (01:49:52):
<Laugh>. Does does Oho have an impact on concurrency or,

Rich Campbell (01:49:57):
Yes.

Leo Laporte (01:49:58):
Okay.

Rich Campbell (01:49:58):
It, it makes concurrency extremely difficult. That's why you end up with mu texs and

Paul Thurrott (01:50:02):
Flags addict explains a lot

Leo Laporte (01:50:03):
Actually.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:04):
Yes. Is the epitome of like a white lab coated technology. It's, it's, lets, let's take the simplest possible problem and make it the most complex imaginable <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (01:50:16):
Well, in the early days, you know, when Alan k first proposed it was small talk, it was different than what we're doing to, than Java style oho,

Rich Campbell (01:50:24):
But small. Yes. It

Leo Laporte (01:50:24):
Was about very functional. Right? Yeah. It was about messaging really more than anything else. Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:50:29):
That's creating Yeah. That

Leo Laporte (01:50:32):
It's often

Rich Campbell (01:50:33):
Separate thread.

Leo Laporte (01:50:34):
Yeah. Yeah. It's often, it's often said that the oh, oh, we got is not what Alan K was.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:40):
We got the Oho,

Leo Laporte (01:50:40):
We deserved <laugh>, we got, we deserved.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:43):
Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:50:44):
I'm glad that hoop is kind of

Paul Thurrott (01:50:47):
Fading. I'm not kind fad. Fa my God, the world has walked away from

Leo Laporte (01:50:50):
That. Yeah. Well, J no, you know, I look at Paul Holder, who one of our great programmers in our our club and our very active member of our forums. And he's he always says the advent of co he always uses objects cuz he's in Java and it's very heavily Oh,

Paul Thurrott (01:51:03):
Java. Okay. But,

Leo Laporte (01:51:04):
But, and I'm always impressed. I look, I look at it and I go,

Paul Thurrott (01:51:07):
Wow, Paul. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:51:08):
That's some, that's, that's some nice, that's some nice message passing <laugh>. That's some nice Oh boy. Polymorphism you got going there.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:16):
I, I can handle, I can handle function overloading <laugh>. No problem.

Leo Laporte (01:51:19):
Yeah. That's, that's pretty transparent. It's multiple inheritance. Yep. You know, polymorphism

Paul Thurrott (01:51:25):
No, no, no, no, no. All

Leo Laporte (01:51:26):
That stuff.

Rich Campbell (01:51:27):
Yeah. The best multi-threaded guy I knew office started his lectures with, listen, there's about four guys who really know how to do this and three of them are lying

Leo Laporte (01:51:35):
<Laugh>. That's right. Right. No, but functional coding on the other hand, lends itself Well, does it not because of immutability. Yes. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:43):
But this is

Leo Laporte (01:51:44):
Ental s

Paul Thurrott (01:51:45):
The

Leo Laporte (01:51:45):
Job because every function is supposed to give you the same result with the same input no matter what. There's no side effects, which is exactly what

Paul Thurrott (01:51:53):
You want. It's the problem with AI in a nutshell. <Laugh>. Yeah. It's all effects, side

Leo Laporte (01:51:56):
Effects. It's all side

Paul Thurrott (01:51:56):
Effects. Right?

Rich Campbell (01:51:58):
Yeah. It's all side effects all the way

Leo Laporte (01:52:00):
Down. Every time you get a different

Paul Thurrott (01:52:02):
Well you say seriously it kind of is the problem, you

Leo Laporte (01:52:04):
Know? Yeah.

Rich Campbell (01:52:04):
It's not, we thought it was turtles turned out to be side effects.

Leo Laporte (01:52:07):
It's not. It's, I get, you know, that's, you know what you actually, Paul, you might have hit on something cuz we expect computing to be deterministic.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:14):
Yep. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And

Leo Laporte (01:52:15):
Listen, that's exactly what it is,

Paul Thurrott (01:52:16):
Is computers enough to know that the, the world of zeros and ones is should be perfect and never is. Yeah. But there is nothing less reliable, I would say that. I bet you could feed the same query to the same AI and get a different Oh yeah, yeah, sure. You know, and that's built in, that's not the way this is supposed to

Leo Laporte (01:52:34):
Work. Well, but that's, you know, I mean, I think maybe we were living in a more fuzzy time. I mean, you mentioned quantum computing. Is the cat dead? I don't

Paul Thurrott (01:52:42):
Know, black and white. You have to check <laugh>

Rich Campbell (01:52:44):
Reality a compressed jpeg. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:52:49):
No, but I think ultimately it may well be that Von Newman's style deterministic computing is not the way forward. It's kind of the, you know, the massive pulp something

Paul Thurrott (01:53:00):
Of using math to figure out what kind of propulsion you to get around a sun and then have a genesis send you outta the solar system, then you need maths. I think at that point, that should be determined. I don't want that science to be behind it to the

Rich Campbell (01:53:09):
Fuzzy

Leo Laporte (01:53:10):
<Laugh> That should not be fuzzy. No, I, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:12):
It's just you know, just a personal preference. It's

Rich Campbell (01:53:15):
Interesting. And we, we already have multiple kinds of processors designed for different workloads. Right. That's the difference between do GPU and a cpu. Right. CPUs are inherently deterministic even when they're running non-deterministic processes. Right. And scaler computers are very well suited to multicellular computation. That's, that works well when you're gonna simulate neurons and make

Paul Thurrott (01:53:35):
Up lies on the, okay. Like, you gotta <laugh> you gotta gimme a second here.

Rich Campbell (01:53:39):
Well, in, in Async awaits a great example of a language construct built for an objector language, but so good it showed up everywhere.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:48):
That's right. Oh my God. Everywhere. It's in JavaScript. That's how you know it's everywhere. Yeah. Yep. What's it be there?

Leo Laporte (01:53:56):
I love these kinds of conversations, but I'm sorry we took you down that rabbit hole, ladies and gentlemen, but it's okay. This we are emerging. Mm-Hmm.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:03):
<Affirmative>. All right. So this, this one will make a little more high level and, but it ties into what we were just talking about. So Microsoft just had a WINii community call, which I never would normally listen to <laugh>, but Raphael watched it and then he tweeted about it, and then I had to go and watch it. And basically what this team said was that they were partnering with the File Explorer team to replace Zael Islands inside of, and I'll explain that in a second, inside a file explorer with the Windows app sdk. So I was like, wait, well what the <laugh>, what does that mean? What are you talking about? And basically the top part of the File Explorer application, which is the, the tabs and the toolbar and that kind of thing, is today written written to a technology called SAML Islands, which is a way to bring win UI three to a legacy application, which is what File Explorer is.

(01:54:52):
Right? Like a kind, it's probably a c plus plus. I don't know what it is, but it's a, a legacy win 32 app. This technology does not work well at all. In fact, I don't know of any successful implementations of it <laugh> other than perhaps File Explorer, which the, the WIN UI team said they had to customize in-house to make it work properly because it was so terrible. So I find that kind of interesting. Now, the thing about win bringing win Windows app or WIN App SDK to this application is actually that's not possible either. <Laugh>, there is no way to use the Windows app SDK with an existing WIN 32 app. So they're doing the same nonsense in house that they were doing as Sam Islands. But I think this speaks to a, a, a problem they were having, which was they couldn't move forward with all this new UI they wanted to do. And so they're moving it onto the, the latest stack that they have for WIN UI y three.

Rich Campbell (01:55:43):
Yeah. I I'm surprised that Zal Islands became such a fixture. It it sure seemed like a temporary measure when they put together

Paul Thurrott (01:55:51):
A few years ago. Yep. Like, but see, the thing is like, to, to my mind, I always, I always look, I mean, I'm always looking for the simple solution. Like to me mm-hmm. I should be able to have like a W P F app, right? Which is this technology that debut viewed back in 2006 or whatever with Windows Vista, and you use SAML to create a UI and it's a desktop ui. And I should be able to create a ZL file that writes to, I guess, reads or writes to whatever to win RT or to windows app sdk. And I should be able to plug and replace all of the little function calls out of my old AML into my news Amal and have, it should just work and I should have a modern looking application. Yeah. And that is absolutely not possible. <Laugh>. Yes. So not today.

Rich Campbell (01:56:31):
I, as I recall, Zael Islands was put together in the post win eight fallout Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:56:37):
To build

Rich Campbell (01:56:38):
Bridges between UW P and other apps. Yep. And yeah. And now that these AMLs are consolidating, like it became less and less rational. The,

Paul Thurrott (01:56:47):
The thing that the, the problem with it is, there, there, there is no market for a developer who has an idea to create a modern app that's only gonna run on Windows. Like that market doesn't exist. No. There is a humongous market of existing apps out in the world that were written in wind forums mm-hmm. <Affirmative> or wpf F I'll just edit it there. Or, or no, I should say also C plus plus and the WIN 30 Q api. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And if you could give these guys a way to create a new front end UI for all of the windows that they have in their application, do the backend plugging into their already preexisting functions or, you know, event handlers, whatever, that would be a wonderful thing to give people.

Rich Campbell (01:57:26):
When you remember, there was that wave of tooling in the, in the, you know, late in 20 10, 20 11 ish that was all about wrapping up old win 32 apps and packaging. There would be other things so they could be pushed into the store and that, and that kind of faded away. Right. but but it, that's also the time of Zal Islands, right? That was a modernization strategy for WIN 32 apps.

Paul Thurrott (01:57:52):
But it just doesn't, I I mean, look, the WIN app SDK is whatever it is, it's uwp is what it is, but Yeah. And Maui is whatever it is, and those things are fine. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but what I think what the world really needs is what I described earlier. You know, there's all these code bases out there. I want this thing to look normal and modern on Windows 11.

Rich Campbell (01:58:14):
Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:15):
I don't understand why that's so hard.

Rich Campbell (01:58:18):
Yeah. Cuz there's dependencies in code that are very old. Right. So, I mean, I'm, I've been watching things like the forms Recognizer is saying, how long before you can point that at a WinForms app and spit out a power platform app,

Paul Thurrott (01:58:30):
How long is it before you can point a gy tool at win APT SDK zael and have it actually show you a preview what the thing's gonna look like?

Rich Campbell (01:58:40):
Yeah. No, no. Now you're just talking crazy talk Mr. Throughout <laugh>. I, I have to say I like writing code to create you ui. Like I like saml and I think a lot of people, and the only reason you ever questioned that is because there is the WinForms designer. But it, but it's important to remember the WinForms designer is the anomaly. It hasn't worked for anything else that's anywhere else ever. Yeah. It never worked for Wpf F it doesn't work Well, it exists for w word for web. Anyone who Yeah. But it's not usable. Gets rid of it. They were trying to create a miracle. They failed. They left it in the box. So you can know they failed <laugh>.

(01:59:14):
That's great. <Laugh>. But yeah, they, the first thing to do is turn it off. But, but that designer, which really goes, I mean, literally back to the early nineties right? To Yeah, yeah. To, to, to Gates' vision of Bill Windows, you know, it did. But they tried, you know, that's also the, that was the claim of Front page. And look what it made. Like, it's hard to generate code that isn't horrible. Well, especially when you don't know what the resolution or scaling of any display is and blah blah. It is. Yeah. It, it gets harder as things, you know, as UI improve, it gets harder and harder. And this, you know, we, when they wanted to do the high DPI version of wind forms, they did it for.net three one in the WIN SDKs and they said it's not gonna be Pixel Perfect and we're not gonna let you just import it.

(02:00:04):
You have to jump through some hoops. Right. So that you look at your screens because Pixel Perfect's impossible. Yep. It's still the dream. Eh, you know what, like I said, it's gonna be easier to redo those apps in, in a new tool set. I know. We're just like, really not, it's just such a terrible message. Like if it's an internal app bound to Windows machines Yeah. You know, it probably should be a power platform app, but I'm a hair tech for saying that. But that's interesting the way that thing's licensed the, what it's designed to do, it's a better answer. And the question now is, do you spend the time building an importer and have you ever watched the forms recognizer do its thing on paper forms? Like it'll freak you out. It's pulling, it's reading that form, pulling out name value pairs. Like it doesn't take that mu, that's not a much of a leap to simply say now ain't that at a WinForm screen? Like if I literally snap took pictures of all of the screens in a WinForms app, right. Print 'em out on paper and fed 'em to the forms recognizer, I mean, in the same place.

(02:01:11):
Well I know that there's WPF F and wind forms are now kind of community supported. I suppose that's not gonna happen. But maybe, maybe, I don't know. They must be some modernization efforts occurring somewhere. They're not, I mean, they're not really community supported. They are part of the WIN sdk. They are folks still working on it, but the energy's in Maui for better or worse. And, and, you know Yeah. Well if I'm wearing my enterprise architect hat and, and the team wants to, is green fielding super rare? You know, today's a tough day to call that. Cuz Maui's not Right? It's not,

Paul Thurrott (02:01:45):
It's, I everything else. It doesn't have all the same level of control support that you get across these other things

Rich Campbell (02:01:49):
Yes.

Paul Thurrott (02:01:50):
On Windows.

Rich Campbell (02:01:51):
And so, I mean, if it was really about, if it's a, so if it's Windows we're probably gonna keep building websites, maybe, maybe it maybe react. Like that's probably what we're gonna do.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:01):
That's what Microsoft's doing. Maybe that should be a clue to everyone. <Laugh>. Yeah. Right. although the, the built-in apps and Windows 11 are in a curious boo bays of different technologies mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but depending on what team built them. Yeah. The ma the modern ones are often, well they're wind I three, but I, or win ui I should say. Actually, I don't know if it's three, but they're winy.

Rich Campbell (02:02:23):
If they re-implement the desktop apps for office in Maui, then you'll know <laugh> as they sh as they probably should have done with w

Paul Thurrott (02:02:31):
They tried, you know, they tried

Rich Campbell (02:02:32):
Right. 2007

Paul Thurrott (02:02:33):
Pre Maui. But they, they tried to do do the the metro thing with the office apps.

Rich Campbell (02:02:38):
Yeah. They, that went

Paul Thurrott (02:02:39):
Poorly.

Rich Campbell (02:02:41):
Well, they were told you weren't gonna have to window worry about iOS and Android because Windows eight was gonna dominate the whole landscape, phone, tablet, and pc.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:51):
What a dream.

Rich Campbell (02:02:52):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:02:53):
The dream is real.

Paul Thurrott (02:02:54):
Remind me what happened because I, I don't remember that happening. There was

Rich Campbell (02:02:58):
Alar, what was a large unhappy noise. <Laugh>. Yeah. And then Right. And then suddenly, and then the Flushing. Stanford had a new entrepreneur in residence. <Laugh>. Right. <Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:03:13):
You wanna do an Xbox thing, Pauly?

Rich Campbell (02:03:15):
I do. Do it.

Leo Laporte (02:03:16):
Do it.

Paul Thurrott (02:03:18):
So Microsoft went to Europe and defended their attempted acquisition of Activision Blizzard. I, regardless, they, I mean whatever they had to say, right? Who cares except for two things. <Laugh>, they announced the deal. They actually, they finalized the deal to bring Co Call of Duty to Nintendo for 10 years. <Laugh>, which is hilarious. And they signed a deal with Nvidia to bring all of their PC game pass games to GForce now. Hmm. Which is basically them saying, look, we're not proprietary. We're not, we're not unilateral. Like we're gonna, you know, we're gonna make sure stuff is elsewhere. Right. This is the message you're sending. We're not Sony, I think is what it really is. I didn't write about this by the way, but Foss patent pat Patton said two reports that Sony visited Microsoft sometime in the past week. And the way that these reports came about was people started seeing Sony private jets at Sea Tac <laugh> and people started following cars around and stuff.

Leo Laporte (02:04:15):
You know, when Sony's visiting, cuz it's a gaggle, no, it's not one, it's like the small group. And they're very, I know this cuz Sony visited tech TV when they were looking at bottom eyes. Okay. And it's, it's all, they're on black suits, white, white shirts, black ties, and they stick together and

Paul Thurrott (02:04:31):
They, what they should do is leave the airport in like 12 identical Escalades <laugh> and have them all go in different directions. <Laugh>,

Rich Campbell (02:04:38):
You know,

Leo Laporte (02:04:40):
And then Gerard, you dunno where they're going, jumps out of the airplane. Oh, no. That's another story.

Rich Campbell (02:04:45):
Yeah. <laugh>, it's which one of the Escalades has the mini gun?

Leo Laporte (02:04:48):
Exactly. What do you think Sony was saying in this visit?

Paul Thurrott (02:04:53):
I, I don't know. I mean, I, I

Leo Laporte (02:04:55):
Like, we'll drop the see, it's not up to them to

Paul Thurrott (02:04:58):
Drop it. Yeah. Is there a point at which these two companies talk and Sony says, okay, yeah, but except your tools.

Leo Laporte (02:05:03):
Even if so, well, can Sony then go to the EU and say, call off the dogs?

Paul Thurrott (02:05:06):
Apparently Sony is writing their <laugh>. I mean, like Sony just says stuff, but it becomes like a regulator concern. I mean, it's astonishing watching the world tripping over themselves to protect this company. Yeah. But they

Rich Campbell (02:05:19):
May well be writing a, they may well be writing a brief saying, Hey, we think Microsoft owning this is a good thing.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:27):
Well, that would be, that would

Leo Laporte (02:05:28):
Take the wind out of the EU sale, I would

Paul Thurrott (02:05:30):
Imagine. It sure would. Yeah.

Rich Campbell (02:05:31):
It sure. That's, that's how you do that.

Leo Laporte (02:05:34):
But if you're the, but I gotta say, if you're an EU commissioner, you're not gonna drop it because that makes you look like you're a Sony henchman.

Rich Campbell (02:05:41):
So. Well, that's been the problem all along. Right? Well,

Leo Laporte (02:05:44):
That's true. <Laugh>, you

Paul Thurrott (02:05:45):
Are well, by the way,

Rich Campbell (02:05:46):
Okay. At a time when the, when the public is not impressed with government as a whole, government has to look like it's doing something useful.

Paul Thurrott (02:05:53):
Right. So I I've been kind of impressed by like, I've made the case. Like, I don't understand why the ftc a a US regulatory body Ha has even listened to a Japanese company. Yeah. Right. Not to be xenophobic about it, but that's strange to me. But I will hit, let me provide you with the genesis of every single EU action against big tech that has ever occurred, tiny company from Europe goes to the EC and says they're, could you do something about it? And then they do. They do exactly what those guys wanted every single time. Sony is not one of those companies. No. Sony is a gigantic <laugh> Japanese tech conglomerate,

Leo Laporte (02:06:29):
Which by the way, participates in exactly the kind of

Paul Thurrott (02:06:32):
Exclusivities Yes. <Laugh>. Yes. It does

Rich Campbell (02:06:34):
Make me wonder if Rad Smith didn't send a letter to Sony saying, here's what we're gonna propose to the eu. Right. That all came, companies over a certain size make sure all games are available on all platforms. Ooh.

Paul Thurrott (02:06:45):
Or, or could let us have film duty. Ooh, what do you think? Yeah.

Rich Campbell (02:06:49):
Yeah. And then, and they flew over and said, no.

Paul Thurrott (02:06:52):
Is there a company that has done more harm to independent game developers in Europe than Sony? I don't. Maybe <laugh>. I don't know. I don't think so. But I bet Sony's near the top of the list. Yeah. The, the, the preferential treatment they're getting around the world is astonishing. You know, it, it would be like the US government defending Microsoft against Netscape. You know, <laugh> like, I, I, I, this, I this company is gonna put you out of business. Do you need some help? Yeah. <laugh>, you know, like, it, it's crazy. But that's what's happening. So, you know, we'll see. Anyway, people always ask me, it looks like there's a lot of opposition to this thing. You know, you think they're gonna give it up, you know, they're gonna lose this. Right. And it's like, I honestly, if they stick with it, I think they win. Yeah.

(02:07:31):
I gotta ask, I gotta say though, and I probably have said this before at some, like, at what point do you to say, you know what, this isn't worth it. Like, from Microsoft's perspective, what are they fighting? Like what are they? I don't even, I've lost track of what the point of this is anymore. Yeah. Like what's the market opportunity here? More Azure consumption with Yeah. World of Warcraft. Ugh. I don't know. It's such a mess. Well, and now, and now, well, the fact that Brad Smith was there. Yeah. What's the chief council doing there? Like this guy combined, the, the next representative from the district of <laugh>, whatever, I mean this, he's doing what he always does Yeah. Is just standing on a stage in his blue suit. I don't know. That's his, that's his, this his brad his political aspirations. Oh, yes.

(02:08:14):
Yes. I think his next job will be a politician of some kind. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> interesting. So when I moved, I moved to Seattle, he'll be my member of Congress. Yeah. I did. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised. Congressman Smith. Okay. Okay. So, okay, two more small stories. More, more. Last summer there were rumors and then news that Microsoft was doing the obvious and bringing its game pass subscription service into a kind of a family plan. Right. This sounds really obvious. Sounds like a great idea. And the idea here is that you have a, you know, just like you have with Microsoft 365 family you have some adult who is, you know, strives the account and then they can share it with like five people preferably in your family, although it's called friends and family. So it could be other people as well.

(02:09:00):
They have to be in the same country. Sounds great. Right. Could just be friends. Just my friends. They could be friends. That's Oh, that's good. This is, you know, take that Netflix, you know, whatever. Okay, fine. They launched it as one does in Chile and Scotland. No, I'm sorry. Was it chilly? It's kind of random. <Laugh>. No. Yeah, I was what? Chile Hungry Israel, New Zealand, South Africa. Oh, this is the new countries. Oh, Chi's a new country. I'm sorry. Right. I'm sorry. It was Columbia and Ireland. Oh, okay. Baseball September. Big market shares. Yeah, sorry. Launch in those countries. Now. Now, like you said, I'm sorry, it's Chi, they've added six new countries. So Chile, hungry Israel, New Zealand, South Africa and Sweden. So not where you live, but <laugh> some other places like, and, you know, Microsoft gets ripped on for good reason for often going us first and then maybe the rest of the world, maybe not.

(02:09:50):
Like Cortana was a good example of this. Cortana picked up a lot of capabilities in the United States that never, ever came worse. Nowhere where else. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a big problem for people in those other places as it would be they seem to be overcompensating for that with this thing. But or is it low value markets to test to? I think that's exactly what it's, yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. and then, you know, the, the pricing varies by country and I don't live in any of those countries. I can only imagine. Well, I can just look, I guess. I'm sure it's fairly expensive, but that's fine. Okay. And then I made this kind of offhand comment. You know, Microsoft usually most months has two drops or two announcements of game pass titles across Cloud console and Win and pc. One at the beginning for the first half of the month, and one in, in the middle for the second half of the month.

(02:10:41):
And this month I noticed the second announcement was really early. And sure enough, they have a third announcement. So despite the fact that this is the shortest month of the year, Hmm. Microsoft has a third set, although actually two of the games are going out to the 28th. And then the other two are coming on March 2nd and third. So I guess it bleeds into the next month. So four new titles, all of which, no, not all of which, most of which are on console Cloud npc. One of which which is only on console npc and none of them, I've never heard of any of them. So whatever. Yeah. F 22, F1 22. It looks like a racing game. Whoa. Long Fallen Dynasty, <laugh>, soul Hackers Two and Merchant Blade. So anyway, if you're paying for Game Pass, you get

Leo Laporte (02:11:27):
More. Yeah, I did hook up my Xbox Series X to my brand new Oh yeah. 77 inch Samsung. What is it? Qd O led. We're

Paul Thurrott (02:11:40):
Like, the character in Doom is the same size as a normal human being. You

Leo Laporte (02:11:43):
Yes. Ah, yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:11:47):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:11:47):
Icons the size of your head. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. How is it? It's beautiful. It's the super, it's the brightest oed ever made

Paul Thurrott (02:11:55):
You do flight simulator

Leo Laporte (02:11:56):
On this thing? Not yet. That's a good idea. I have it on the Xbox. I just played Harry Potter

Paul Thurrott (02:12:00):
Download, like one of those nice like country or region packs where they do the high residue

Leo Laporte (02:12:05):
It running in the background.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:07):
Oh man. Yeah, you should

Leo Laporte (02:12:08):
Trainor, we're flying to Dublin. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. When? Right now. Right

Paul Thurrott (02:12:12):
Now. Come on in the living room,

Leo Laporte (02:12:14):
Honey. We're in a flat spin and I'm about to die. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:18):
I'm at the, I'm at the control. So we're gonna hit the Spinx. See

Leo Laporte (02:12:20):
Mount Kilimanjaro. It's getting closer.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:24):
I've never been able to fly under the Eiffel Tower, but it doesn't mean I'm,

Leo Laporte (02:12:26):
I'm gonna stop trying. I'm gonna do it cuz you ha And what plane? I have to do it in assessment. Yeah. Floor 47. Not a lot of room under there.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:34):
Yeah, there's not a lot of room. You're not gonna do it in a 7 47. That

Leo Laporte (02:12:38):
Would be pretty fun. Probably. Hello? It is he crazy? He's trying to fly for his back. No. It looks gorgeous. And it, you know, it's, it's 144 hertz. It's designed for gaming as well as watching tv.

Paul Thurrott (02:12:54):
What did you what did you play or what did you look at?

Leo Laporte (02:12:57):
I'm embarrassed to admit it cuz I, you're not supposed to buy this, but I Oh, okay. I did you know, har the, you know, Hogwarts visited or whatever it was. <Laugh>. That's it. I'm, I'm done. I'm outta here.

Paul Thurrott (02:13:13):
Screw this guy.

Leo Laporte (02:13:14):
You're not supposed to give any money to JK rolling ever again. Yeah. Yeah. She's already been paid. Now you're just punishing developers. Okay. Thank you. Hogwarts legacy. That makes me feel better. Hogwarts legacy. Yeah. Which is actually not a great game, but, you know, I have a soft spot for Harry Potter.

Paul Thurrott (02:13:28):
Well, how does it look? It's a good, it's

Leo Laporte (02:13:30):
Good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's good. It's a good game. And monitor 77 inch. 444 hertz. Yeah. Yeah. And they have a gaming mode and all that stuff. Yeah. It's, its

Paul Thurrott (02:13:39):
How far back do you have to be though for this to even

Leo Laporte (02:13:41):
Well make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Like

Paul Thurrott (02:13:43):
In the next room

Leo Laporte (02:13:45):
I'm sitting on my, sitting on my beanbag.

Paul Thurrott (02:13:47):
It's only, yeah, like, it's like when you're sitting in the first row of the movie theater and you're like, yeah, this is, I'm not here to watch a tennis match. You know, I gotta,

Leo Laporte (02:13:55):
It, it's quite nice. I am very happy with it. It replaced a much larger projector. But yeah, it's so much brighter and, and it looks so much better. The only challenge is, and it's not for gaming, it's just for watching tv. Sony or not Sony, Samsung hides the high frame rate setting, you know, for a long time they renamed it. They don't even use the name they use anymore. You have to really kind of know what you're looking for.

Paul Thurrott (02:14:23):
Oh, I've owned Samsung Smart TVs, but trust me, they're terrible. I believe it's a game.

Leo Laporte (02:14:28):
Yeah. And I hate the smart TV thing too cuz it's always trying to do Samsung's version of all this stuff. And I don't want any of that cuz I, you know, I have my own streamer devices and so

Paul Thurrott (02:14:38):
Forth. You sign into your Samsung account on the tv.

Leo Laporte (02:14:41):
Oh God, no. I hope not. <Laugh>, maybe I can, that

Paul Thurrott (02:14:44):
Was the right reaction. Good, good

Leo Laporte (02:14:45):
God. No,

Paul Thurrott (02:14:46):
Just checking <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:14:47):
Oh my god. No. but they knew who I am. Anyway. This, the

Paul Thurrott (02:14:50):
Smart app aren't gonna update themselves. That's all I'm saying. That's one

Leo Laporte (02:14:53):
Big Samsung Galaxy you got there. <Laugh>. Yeah. Well I have the new S 23 Ultra too. And supposedly you're able to calibrate the TV using either an iPhone or the S 23 camera. But I never, I haven't gotten that working yet. So I'm just gonna have, have

Paul Thurrott (02:15:11):
You cast from the phone to the tv. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:15:13):
To the tv. Yeah. It's easy if you, I mean, it has all these Yeah, it has all mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you plug in, it has a USB port, you plug it in and it says all right, you wanna watch, you know Sure. Stuff from there. And yeah. You can cast from the phone. It's, there's all sorts of very nice features. It's it's very, you know, if you're in the Samsung universe it's very nice. They don't support Dolby hdr, which is the better hdr. So I have to do everything HDR 10. But it does look good. And when people come in and see it, so

Paul Thurrott (02:15:39):
It's like Dolby Vision Dolby. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:15:41):
Whatever. We were watching the last of us, Lisa says, do we have to be in the room with them? <Laugh>? It's a little,

Paul Thurrott (02:15:47):
You know, it's, you know, it's a dystopia,

Leo Laporte (02:15:49):
Right? Yeah. Right. I mean, they're we're right in there with the big fungus in and yeah. So it's not so, but that's why I had to turn off high frame rate, cuz it really does feel like, in fact, we were watching the Empire Strikes back and I said, this is the dinkiest dopest set I have ever seen

Paul Thurrott (02:16:07):
<Laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:16:07):
And then I realized, oh, it's upscaling it and doing it in high frame rate. And

Paul Thurrott (02:16:11):
Then the, the, the great scenes where the standing in front of a matte painting. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:16:15):
<Laugh>. Yeah. It's like, I see the painting was watching Andor and I did have to turn off the high frame rate because it just looked cheesy to be honest with you. Wow. That's, and as soon as you turn it off, it looks more like a film again and all that, you know. Wow. That's neat. It's,

Rich Campbell (02:16:27):
It's digitally backgrounds have a frame limit. Yeah. Right.

Leo Laporte (02:16:31):
Yeah. It's a Mandalorian. Can you settle volume

Paul Thurrott (02:16:33):
To use different frame rates for different types of content or

Leo Laporte (02:16:37):
Possibly. I'm not gonna say you can't, but I did look for that and I think it's, yeah, you could leave

Paul Thurrott (02:16:42):
It on for gaming, but turn it off.

Leo Laporte (02:16:44):
Yeah. It has a gaming mode. And I presume that the main point of that is to uncap because, you know, I'm not getting anything higher than 60 frames from any of the stuff I look at, but the games, yeah, they'll be going up to 144.

Rich Campbell (02:16:56):
It might, yeah. This sounds like something I'd program into home assistance. So you could just walk in the room and say, okay, I wanna play a game. Yeah. And it switched everything. Changed

Leo Laporte (02:17:03):
Frame rates. If you plug the Xbox into the external box that Samsung comes with, it knows, and it says, oh yeah, yeah, this is a game. And it'll do all that automatically. Oh, that's cool. Good. Okay. It's it's interesting. That's beautiful tv What got

Paul Thurrott (02:17:17):
Destroyed when Lightning hit my house a couple of years

Leo Laporte (02:17:19):
Ago. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. I forgot that Samsung does that with their TVs. They don't want, and that's, I actually

Paul Thurrott (02:17:24):
Kinda like that. They have one cable

Leo Laporte (02:17:25):
Come out TVs tv and it's flat. You could put it on the wall. Yep. and then you have this box. Yeah. Hmm. I'm very happy with it. It really looks good. And it is fun for gaming to be, to be in the front row of the cinema, as they say. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. All right, before we get to the, you're done with the Xbox. Yes. Yes. Yep. Before we get to the back of the book, can I just put a plug in, brief plug. We're talking earlier, and I think this is the tie in here. We were talking earlier about link bait and how a lot of the content we get now in, in pretty much every tech publication is very link bait. And that we don't do that. We can't do that because of the nature of podcasting where this lend itself, unless I put a thumbnail of me going, ah, on the front of the of the thing.

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(02:20:48):
We've built an amazing audience of engaged, intelligent, affluent listeners who listen to us and trust us when we recommend a product. Our mission statement is twit, is to build a highly engaged community of tech enthusiasts. Well already you should be, your ears should be perking up at that because highly engaged is good for you. Tech enthusiasts, if that's who you're looking for, this is the place we do it by offering 'em the knowledge they need to understand and use technology in today's world. And I hear from our audience all the time, part of that knowledge comes from our advertisers. We are very careful. We pick advertisers with great products, great services with integrity and introduce them to our audience with authenticity and genuine enthusiasm. And that makes our host Red Ads different from anything else you can buy. We are literally bringing you to the attention of our audience and giving you a big fat endorsement.

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Paul Thurrott (02:25:33):
Yeah, why not? Why not? So we don't talk about Twitter too much on this show, but what the heck, let's talk about Twitter for a second. <Laugh>. So Twitter revealed this past week that they're gonna take away the ability to use text messaging as a two, a solution on the service unless you pay for it. Which reminded me no one should ever use that <laugh> capability ever on any service <laugh>. So the recommendation here is obviously you should be using two FFA or two-step authentication, whatever on all of your online accounts, especially the ones that are related to identity, right. Your Microsoft account, your Google account, your Apple id, whatever. But if, and you should, but you should enable two f a or whatever the solution is on any service that supports it. Don't do it through text messaging. So don't pay Twitter ever for any reason, but certainly not for this reason. And if you are using Twitter and you should be using two f a if you are just switch to an authenticator app like the Microsoft Authenticator app or whatever authentication.

Rich Campbell (02:26:37):
Yeah. If you are, if you try to set that up on your phone mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it won't recognize Microsoft Authenticator as a valid authenticator.

Paul Thurrott (02:26:45):
Oh really? I thought he

Rich Campbell (02:26:46):
Just, but if you do it, if you tell it, you've got, if, if you try to do it in the phone app and it won't and it doesn't detect Google Authenticator, it'll go haven't got one. But you can do it separately on, you know, do it on a laptop on your, on a computer, set it up and then tell it you've got Google Authenticator, the codes will work.

Paul Thurrott (02:27:04):
Okay.

Rich Campbell (02:27:04):
Right. You just have to jump through

Paul Thurrott (02:27:05):
The edge. I do have it in Microsoft Authenticator, but I'm not, I don't remember how I did it <laugh>.

Rich Campbell (02:27:09):
Yeah, you you did it manually against your machines.

Paul Thurrott (02:27:11):
It was, it was some time

Rich Campbell (02:27:12):
Ago, but yeah, I, I set right up with a Fido key cuz I've got Fido key. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (02:27:16):
There you, okay. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:27:18):
Which by the way Yeah. So you're using the more secure authentication anyway.

Rich Campbell (02:27:22):
Yeah. Well I like, I like to have things more, more likely to lose with me at all times.

Leo Laporte (02:27:26):
Yeah. <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (02:27:28):
Nice.

Leo Laporte (02:27:30):
Sure this was a weird thing, but I guess it costs them money, right? Twilio or whatever they're using. So it makes sense for them to say, well, only if you're giving us money, but it's, you don't, you shouldn't be using it anyway. I took it off Twitter didn't used to let you take it off if you had two factor at all. You had to have a phone backup. But about three or four years ago they said you could uncheck that. And so I haven't had SMS based TFA on Twitter in

Rich Campbell (02:27:54):
Ages. Shouldn't have SMS TFA for anywhere. You

Leo Laporte (02:27:57):
Know, most banks still require it because they don't want to support you if you, you know,

Paul Thurrott (02:28:02):
I, well can't figure it out. How do you guys feel about us? So obviously with an online account you might have different methods, right? So the prime, is it acceptable as a tertiary backup <laugh> or is it just never acceptable?

Leo Laporte (02:28:16):
Well, whatev I'll tell you what Steve says and what I say, which is the, the level of security you have is only as good as the worst security you, you are using. Yeah. So if you use two factor with SMS on anything, the bad guy's gonna default to that if he wants to and sim Jack you and that's that. So you shouldn't have it turned on at all on anything, even as a backup. It's the weakest.

Paul Thurrott (02:28:40):
Usually get a Microsoft Authenticator prompt on my phone. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> when I'm not doing anything

Leo Laporte (02:28:45):
<Laugh>. That's not SMS though. That's right. That's

Paul Thurrott (02:28:47):
No, no, I know. No, no, I know that. I'm sorry. But I mean, but you could get an SMS notification as well, right? I mean, but I guess the pro, the po the problem with that is that these things are being intercepted and hackers can more easily

Leo Laporte (02:28:58):
Sim Jack. Yeah. So the point is just don't do it. Is the point.

Paul Thurrott (02:29:03):
The point. Yeah. That should be the point. <Laugh>. That should be

Leo Laporte (02:29:05):
The point If you, if you can possibly avoid

Paul Thurrott (02:29:07):
It. Yeah, please avoid it. Yeah. It's

Leo Laporte (02:29:09):
Not worth seven. It's not worth eight bucks a month

Paul Thurrott (02:29:11):
<Laugh>. No, no, no, no. I would, no, yeah. Pay Apex a month so you can be less secure. It doesn't seem like a great solution to me, but I guess that's Twitter 2023. So,

(02:29:21):
All right. So I've been kind of the AP this week is something called Crayon. And because you know, ai, it's the A is AI and crayon, cuz God help me. I'm sorry. But I, I've been using these things to try to create graphics for this YouTube channel I have with my wife. So last week I talked about some of the images I created of like paintings of Mexico City and the style of Frida Kalo. Yeah. Caleb. Yep. Oh, neat. And interestingly on Crayon, if you <laugh>, if you enter the term Frida kelo it makes pitches of her, which, and she's not the most attractive woman in the world. So I she also did

Leo Laporte (02:29:59):
Make paintings of herself.

Paul Thurrott (02:30:01):
Yeah, yeah. It's a, we know what

Leo Laporte (02:30:02):
She looked like.

Paul Thurrott (02:30:03):
It's, she's the the inventor of the uni bro. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I I took don't her,

Leo Laporte (02:30:08):
I think she invented it. <Laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (02:30:09):
No, I'm kidding. But she,

Leo Laporte (02:30:12):
She certainly popularized it. We'll

Paul Thurrott (02:30:14):
Give you that. She's the most famous purveyor of Uni Brow. Yes.

Leo Laporte (02:30:16):
There you go.

Paul Thurrott (02:30:17):
<Laugh>. so I threw a couple of images into the discord of some of the images I created. And so what I did was, I just, these are just like paintings of Mexico City in the spring, like oil paintings that kind of style. So they're actually, they're nice. I mean it's, it did a nice job. And actually I like the kind of size and and shape of these images better than the ones I was creating with Dolly. But, but you are able to customize Dolly in these are actually

Leo Laporte (02:30:42):
Quite, quite nice.

Paul Thurrott (02:30:43):
Yeah, they're nice. You, you, you have to, you

Leo Laporte (02:30:46):
Showed us the eternal Spring ones last week, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think you showed us the Frio call

Paul Thurrott (02:30:51):
<Laugh>. No, I didn't. I never meant to make, I, I, so the, the, the, the quarry I used was in the style of Frito Kalo. Right. And when I did that on,

Leo Laporte (02:30:59):
You got Frida winking at

Paul Thurrott (02:31:01):
You, which is, well, these aren't, I didn't make those, those someone else put those

Leo Laporte (02:31:03):
In. Oh. Oh, I'm sorry. Those are the gifs. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (02:31:08):
Like these are nice, you know, they're

Leo Laporte (02:31:09):
Selma Hayek did play Frida Callo. That's right.

Paul Thurrott (02:31:11):
She did. Yeah. And there couldn't be two women on the more opposite ends of the spectrum than those two, but <laugh>, so, yeah. And I think was the her husband Diego Rivera is what's that guy's name?

Leo Laporte (02:31:23):
Yeah, Diego Rivera. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:31:25):
No, but the guy, the actor who played him in that movie was the guy,

Leo Laporte (02:31:27):
Oh, was it Bandera? Antonio Bandera? No, it

Paul Thurrott (02:31:30):
Should, it should have been. Should have been. Been fantastic. No, it was

Leo Laporte (02:31:32):
Or

Paul Thurrott (02:31:33):
Something. The guy who was Doc Hawk and the original Spider brand

Leo Laporte (02:31:35):
Movie. Oh yeah. Love him. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (02:31:38):
God, his name's right on the tip of my tongue. I'll think of it later. I'll think of it as soon as the show ends, whatever. Anyway, yeah, it's a good movie. Anyway, I'm just kind of plowing through these AI services. I'm really interested in this. Speaking of which, Leo?

Leo Laporte (02:31:51):
Yes.

Paul Thurrott (02:31:53):
I wanted to use Mid Journey. Okay. Mid Journey. You have to actually join through Discord. Yes. Is this something that is, can I do this on twit social or how does that work? Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:32:04):
<Laugh>. Okay. Let me sh let me show you how Discord works, Paul. So

Paul Thurrott (02:32:09):
It's Yeah, please do. Because it is really complicated. It's

Leo Laporte (02:32:11):
A chat client. But you, and you know, this is here, here's our club twit, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But notice I have some other icons. I also am in a Val Heim Discord. I am in a lisp Discord. I am in a podcasting community. And Wow, there's mid journey. Well,

Paul Thurrott (02:32:29):
So the thing is, I have the mid journey.

Leo Laporte (02:32:31):
So you're in here, right? Looking at people's Yeah, I have that. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (02:32:35):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (02:32:35):
So that, oh, you wanna know how to pay for it?

Paul Thurrott (02:32:38):
Is that what you have to do? Do you use it at all?

Leo Laporte (02:32:40):
Well, you can right now. Okay. So

Paul Thurrott (02:32:42):
Like, how do I use this

Leo Laporte (02:32:43):
<Laugh>? Okay. So there is a section which I would recommend reading <laugh> called How do I do This? I

Paul Thurrott (02:32:51):
Love that this is turned into, there's a

Leo Laporte (02:32:52):
Help. Well, this is what I always do with you. So I always ask you how that works. Where is it? When you first join, they say, read this. But basically it's you do slash image

Paul Thurrott (02:33:03):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Leo Laporte (02:33:05):
And then you type the prompt.

Paul Thurrott (02:33:06):
Oh. And then you say, oh, you just do it right in the Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:33:08):
And that's what's both the blessing and the curse of Mid journey, because, so you join a new channel. Okay. And the blessing of the curse is the blessing is you see what other people are doing. You see the images they're getting and you see the prompts they're using, which helps you get better at it. The di you know, the curse is everybody sees the stupid stuff you do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So but everybody else in there is a noob as well. So yeah, this is valuable. And then, but somewhere, and I don't see it now, maybe it's under, there is a whole help section telling you how to do this. It's in there somewhere. When you first joined, it said, read this before you join. And of course, like any good user, you just jumped right out of that. Might be in announcements. Hi everyone. I don't know, somewhere they'll be, you know, read this and it describes how you do everything in there. I don't know where it is. Maybe rules terms of service, community guidelines now.

Paul Thurrott (02:34:09):
Yeah. No, I, I,

Leo Laporte (02:34:11):
Alfred Molina,

Paul Thurrott (02:34:12):
I got, I got it to appear in the app. <Laugh>, Alfred Molina just couldn't figure out

Leo Laporte (02:34:16):
How to make it work. Yeah. So you're, so you're now, it's one of your Discord channels. That's what's over here on the left. But you have to read the thing. It's basically slash image and then a prompt, and then you, you only get a certain number of them for free. And then, and then it'll say, well, you want more, you're gonna have to pay for him. Alex Lindsay pays like the top dollar, which is 50 bucks a month, but he does all sorts of stuff in there. It's amazing. But

Paul Thurrott (02:34:38):
I just, I so like it's not clear like, like where I'm going in this channel to do, like, even to enter stuff. Like, it's

Leo Laporte (02:34:47):
You going into newbie once again, if you'd read it, you would <laugh>, you would, you would know.

Paul Thurrott (02:34:52):
All right.

Leo Laporte (02:34:53):
Is that two rtfm? Wow. You, I would say,

Paul Thurrott (02:34:58):
Would I be being paddled now if I was in the public with you?

Leo Laporte (02:35:00):
They you could go in office hours and ask, but I think they'll just tell you, you should let's see. Go to home. The official server, these newbie channels are where you do the slash imagine. Okay. You don't do it in here, you do it in the newbies, cuz you're a newbie, obviously. <Laugh>. Yeah. And then yep, I, there's one of the channels in there is, is

Paul Thurrott (02:35:26):
It has this message. It's like follow to get this channel's updates in your own server.

Leo Laporte (02:35:31):
But that's the No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't need do that. You just want how to use it. Oh, wait a minute, I'm open up. Oh, there we go. Okay. It's under info. The reason I didn't see this, cuz I had info collapsed. Hashtag getting started. Read that <laugh>.

Paul Thurrott (02:35:49):
All right. I will bother you no further. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:35:52):
Read that. This is the start of the getting started channel. Welcome. It sure is. And it tells you how to do all, how to create an image. Go to one. I'm sorry. Not image. Imagine I should have said imagine not image. Okay. So I started, I gave you the wrong thing. And then it shows you how to get variations and upscales how to pay for it if you want more. So this is all in the in the welcome to,

Paul Thurrott (02:36:18):
I found this curiously difficult <laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:36:20):
To say, you know, people complain about Mastodon. Somebody was saying I can't, he said he was in an art discord channel. He's in a club. Yeah. Said I can't figure out Mastin. I said, dude, you figured out Discord. You <laugh> you, you're way this way harder.

Paul Thurrott (02:36:34):
<Laugh>. I get ripped on when I tell people that Mastodon could be a little intimidating for people because you know, with an online service you typically type in your email address and some password you want and you're in and on, master on. You gotta do some work. <Laugh>, you know? Yeah. And a

Leo Laporte (02:36:48):
Little work. It's

Paul Thurrott (02:36:49):
Not, I do think that's a little more intimidating for most people.

Leo Laporte (02:36:51):
Little more work. It's not, yeah. Look, thank goodness. No,

Paul Thurrott (02:36:53):
No. I'm not saying it's insurmountable. I'm just saying, you know, it's not the normal experience. No, well it's not for like a normy. If

Leo Laporte (02:36:59):
Twitter is the normal experience, it's not Twitter. I agree.

Paul Thurrott (02:37:02):
Yeah. It's not super, it's just Twitter. I mean anything like, you could join, anyone today could join Facebook in 10 seconds if they wanted to. Ums true is a little more

Leo Laporte (02:37:11):
Work. Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, you're right. You're right. Because it's so many different,

Paul Thurrott (02:37:14):
It's not a complaint, it's just an observation.

Leo Laporte (02:37:16):
Different service. Yeah. Yeah. Our server is quite

Rich Campbell (02:37:20):
Good. It doesn't really matter which one you pick

Leo Laporte (02:37:22):
It. Well, I'll tell you it does a little bit because that's your community, right? So the local feed is the people that you are the on your server. On that server. So if you join TWIT Social, that's all Twit listeners. So that's a different kind of community. If you're a lawyer, you should join a law server. Paul should join a server for Idiot Savan. I mean, it's just, you should join the server <laugh>. You're just straight up idiots. Whatever you belong, you just

Paul Thurrott (02:37:45):
Say it, it's fine. I don't care. You,

Leo Laporte (02:37:47):
You could follow anybody on any other server, but the the local feed is always gonna be your current server, which is kind of, I mean, I, you don't even have to follow anybody on your local server cuz you're gonna see all their posts in local. So home is the home feed is the people you follow, like a Twitter feed. Local is the people on your server. Federated is all the people who are on your server that they follow, including yours. So it's, it's not everything, but it's everything followed by people on your server. So you do wanna join a good server with people who are interested in the outside world. And you know, cuz that way your federated feeds better as well. You're right. It's way too complicated. <Laugh> Twitter was complicated when it first started though. I

Rich Campbell (02:38:29):
Think It's not. And not especially difficult.

Paul Thurrott (02:38:31):
That's what everyone says.

Leo Laporte (02:38:32):
I hear it. You can switch servers. It's very easy to switch servers cuz you can take all your followers with you. If you are listening to show you are

Paul Thurrott (02:38:41):
Realistic pictures of Christina Kirschner

Leo Laporte (02:38:43):
As a goddess, you are now in Mid Journey <laugh>. Congratulations. Yeah. If you are listening to the show, you're welcome to join Twit Social, our maid, on instance. I do approve everybody to keep the spammers out. Just go to twit.social sign up and make sure you mention that you heard it on Windows Weekly or that you know, you know, Paul and Richard. Because if you just say, I'm getting outta here, I'm getting outta Twitter, I'm not gonna let you in. I you need to show you listen to the show. That's all. That's how we keep it kind friendly to people like you and me. Would you like to you did Crayon. So I think it's time for run as radio Mr. Richard Camp.

Rich Campbell (02:39:25):
Yes, sir. So this week shows with Michael Nehouse, one of our favorite folks. Super smart. We were talking about migrating to Windows 11. Now, again, this is very much from a SISs admin perspective. So what you're looking at is by October of 2025 mm-hmm. <Affirmative> Win 10 goes into extended support. And that will start off probably being about 50 bucks per year per machine. Then up to a hundred the following year, maybe 200. I'm, I'm following what they did with Win seven. They went into extended support. And so those numbers add up pretty quickly if you've got a shop full of machines. So this is the big push to say, Hey, it's 2023, you got about two years, you get to work on on win 11 for your, for your company. And that's really what Michael and I ran down was just like, okay, what, what's the deployment look like? What what's the move look like? Do we really wanna do this with replaced hardware? Are we gonna migrate in place? Like all those, those are all the things that we worry about.

Leo Laporte (02:40:25):
Nice.

Paul Thurrott (02:40:25):
I I, yeah. Run his part of this episode and I will finish it, but I was interested to hear him sort of admit, you know, you look at the stats for upgrades on Windows 11 in the enterprise and

Rich Campbell (02:40:36):
It's not compelling.

Paul Thurrott (02:40:38):
Nonexistent,

Rich Campbell (02:40:39):
Huh? Well, and it, and I mean, it, it's the old service pack thing right off the bat, right? Like, it's like,

Paul Thurrott (02:40:44):
Yes,

Rich Campbell (02:40:45):
I'll wait for a service pack before I do a thing. And then but that's now happened and then it's also group policy issues. It's

Paul Thurrott (02:40:53):
You, I have something that works and you want me to do work. Yeah. To <laugh> switch to something different. Like what,

Rich Campbell (02:40:59):
Why would I break something that works?

Paul Thurrott (02:41:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It is a, yeah. Yeah. I thought that was interesting.

Rich Campbell (02:41:04):
Yeah, it's a good truth. And Michael's such a a straight man on all of this. He's very deadpan and but, and very wise. And so, but plus it's easy to fall in the trap of we do this with configuration manager, or it's only new hardware with autopilot. It's like, look, mic mdt, Microsoft Deployment dual kit works just fine. Just some extra steps, some extra scripts. You'll, you can get it done so you don't have to spend money on it.

Leo Laporte (02:41:31):
Run as radio.com for Richard's Fine Show. Thank you. And now let's do some lick. Let's get licked up.

Rich Campbell (02:41:41):
So I have been building up a set of notes to walk you through the whiskey creation process and then also introduce you to wiki whiskeys that I think are profound in that process. Okay. So we sh we should start at the beginning in that specifically with barley. All right. Barley is the grain used to make beer and to make Scottish whiskey. Other whiskeys, other elsewhere in the world often use a blend of grains. With bourbon it's typically corn, barley and, and Ry the, the Irish will do whatever they want. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:42:20):
As usual,

Rich Campbell (02:42:21):
It's, it's wild when you can find on a mash bell for an Irish whiskey <laugh>. But in, look, there's a lot, barley is not that popular a grain anymore. It's one of the ancient grains, right. Originally found in the Fertile Crescent is part of the branches of all the grains. It was one of the earliest to to, to break off. But it it, it wasn't, didn't respond as well to to, to baking like barley based breads. Right, right. Don't taste very good. No, they're very hard. And yicky. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're, wheat did re respond well. And so then, and then when you get into the engineering of, of food during the, with the, the Green Revolution, wheat also adopted to far more areas. And so now wheat has grown everywhere. So the yield on barley's relatively low. It is a relatively expensive grain to grow, but for certain products, specifically beer and Scottish whiskey, it does very well.

(02:43:19):
And so there's about over 5,000 strains of, of barley in the world, but only 10 are approved for Scottish whiskey. Hmm. it's specifically a kind of barley called hard disk. And it is what's called a two row barley. So there are also six row barleys. And that's basically how the siege structure goes together. Six row barley is commonly grown in North America. And most American beers are done with six row barley as the the seed crop. But two row they get very precise on, on the kind, on the good barley. And this comes down to it matter, the, this whole idea of tarrah, which is a French term really, they typically apply to wine, but tarrah for barley matters a lot as well. They look in, in whiskey making for very high starch counts and really low nitrogen content.

(02:44:14):
So this is a bit tooo about fertilizer, bit on growing areas. And so typically only the sandy soils of the eastern part of the UK grow barley particularly well, which is an important problem because whiskey has gotten very popular. And so the UK cannot grow enough barley for the demand that exists in the business. And so the vast majority of barley today is well some still grown in the uk it's grown elsewhere, but there's only a few companies that do all of the barley works for the distilleries. And so barley works being grow the barley malt, the barley, which is s sprouted to turn it into sugar, dry it, and then grind it to grist. And so most distilleries just buy the finished grist ready to go into the wash. And we'll talk about that stuff on another show. But there are a few exceptions here and there.

(02:45:12):
And that's today's whiskey. Today's whiskey is the Macallan estate. Now Macallan is a very popular space side whiskey. I've drank plenty of them over the years. I have had an opportunity to taste this particular one at one of my very favorite whiskey bars in the whole world. The qua at the Craig Aace in the space side it is a fairly expensive whiskey, runs about 300 US dollars. And it, but the distinct part about it is that it is grown from barley, literally from the Macallan estate. Hmm. So the Macallan does have a bit of growing grain and they use it to they actually send it off to a grist. So someone who actually does the malting and the gring. So before them, but then they distill it. I found it tastes very much like Macallan 18 for about twice the price <laugh>.

Speaker 6 (02:46:06):
Okay. <laugh>.

Leo Laporte (02:46:09):
So it's a deal. Is that what you're saying?

Rich Campbell (02:46:11):
<Laugh>. So, but it really begs the question, why, why would you do this? And now we get into sort of the reality about an awful lot of whiskey is that when you, when you have a whiskey of ality, you're trying to get them something special. Yeah. And something, one of a kind would be, yeah, this is a whiskey that's literally from barley from the Macallan estate and that resonates with some folks. Sure. And you pay a substantial premium to make that true.

Leo Laporte (02:46:37):
Yeah. It's 85 proof also, which,

Rich Campbell (02:46:40):
You know, yeah. It's about that means it's been cut with water. Right. Because it didn't come outta the barrel at that number.

Leo Laporte (02:46:45):
Right. I only drink barrel strength from now on strengthen, because it, you this

Rich Campbell (02:46:50):
Of you, you know, I'm a bad influence in many different ways, <laugh>. But to me, I mean, I, if I, as I go through this set of stories, I'm going to always bring you to a whiskey that is an exception to the particular stage. So there are different ways to do malting and I think there's a few of them to do very cool ways of malting. There's a few different wash techniques and there's some, I think there's some cool ways to do that and so on. So if you like this, I'll, I can keep going into this kind of space. It's

Leo Laporte (02:47:18):
Just, I'm very interested. Unusual. Yeah. I encourage our listeners to write and email and let us know. But I think it's a fascinating subject.

Rich Campbell (02:47:28):
Yeah. And you know, it's crazy to think there's 5,000 different kinds of barley now, mostly cuz humans have messed with it. <Laugh>, but only a handful of them are ever used for this. I mean, there are that

Paul Thurrott (02:47:38):
Many different kinds of labradoodles

Leo Laporte (02:47:39):
Now too. So <laugh>, yeah.

Rich Campbell (02:47:42):
Once upon a time there was only a wolf. Every other kind of dog you've seen people made. Right?

Leo Laporte (02:47:47):
Yeah.

Rich Campbell (02:47:48):
30,000 years of messing with canine jeans.

Leo Laporte (02:47:51):
So your recommendation would be to try Macallan 18 instead of this. But

Rich Campbell (02:47:56):
If, yeah. If you want a really nice shared space side

Leo Laporte (02:48:00):
Mm. Sounds good.

Rich Campbell (02:48:02):
For, for about $200 US, you could buy yourself Macallan 18 and wow. Yourself. Okay. Again, a lot of money for a whiskey if you want to, that that's the kind of, that's the first drink whiskey. Yeah. Try that. If you're gonna have whiskey that do that the first drink, and then, then you can step down, then

Leo Laporte (02:48:21):
Drink some ever clear and you'll be fine. Yeah. And

Rich Campbell (02:48:23):
Eventually, usually

Paul Thurrott (02:48:24):
When people start drinking, that's not when they make the best decisions. No, you're right. That's the, the right way to

Leo Laporte (02:48:29):
Do it. Start with the good whiskey, not end with the good whiskey.

Rich Campbell (02:48:32):
Yeah. No, I, I, I just was a, a weekend away with a group of tech friends and one of them produced a 24 year old Glen Morane from 1998. Wow. Wow. And we polished off that bottle in two days. Yeah. And that is abuse of a very good

Leo Laporte (02:48:50):
Whiskey. Yeah. That's the first Sheri whiskey I ever had was Glen Merani, and I was impressed. Cleen. Yeah. Yeah. Really impressed. It's lovely.

Rich Campbell (02:48:56):
Yeah. And the 20, yeah, the 24 year was

Leo Laporte (02:48:59):
Stunning, but yeah, that's about the year I had, but it was in 1998, so, you know, there you go. Yeah. It wasn't old, younger. It was a little younger was Tan

Rich Campbell (02:49:10):
<Laugh>. Yeah. They, and the, and the miracle when we talk about whiskey and I I've used this line before is like the, what's amazing is that Macallan 12 tastes like Macallan 12 every year. Yeah. How do you do that? It's blended. Right. And that's, it's the combining of barrels. Yeah. Remember that the 12 means that's the youngest thing in the bottle. Right, right. There may be olders to get to the quote unquote flavor profile they're trying to get to. And for the most part, barley has been stabilized. They tend to only use one particular species of barley. They Yeah. Very specific characteristics to it. It's only when you get into the malting in the gring phases, which again we could talk about later, that you get a recipe that's specific to a distillery.

Leo Laporte (02:49:50):
They do make a Macallan 18 cask triple, triple cask. Yep.

Rich Campbell (02:49:58):
It's hard to find.

Leo Laporte (02:49:59):
I might try that someday when I don't have anything to do the next day. Mr. Richard Campbell run his radio.com is where you'll find him and his podcasts. It's so great to have you on the show. By the way, I really appreciate the developer and enterprise angle you've brought to the show, cuz

Rich Campbell (02:50:16):
I'm glad I'm having a real fun time on it. Good. And next week's gonna be interesting because I will be in New Zealand. Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:50:23):
All

Rich Campbell (02:50:23):
Right. And but I have a long layover in the Auckland Airport between my Flight Inn and my flight down to Queenstown. Okay. Where I am officiating a wedding. Oh, nice. And so I thought I'm, I might find a little corner there where I can set up the rig and talk to you all from

Leo Laporte (02:50:37):
It. I can't wait.

Rich Campbell (02:50:39):
Seriously. Jet lag State

Leo Laporte (02:50:41):
Rockland

Rich Campbell (02:50:42):
<Laugh>,

Leo Laporte (02:50:43):
That's where Trey Ratcliffe lives in Queensland. And Queenstown.

Rich Campbell (02:50:47):
Well, the fam the family farm is outside of Teranga and I'm gonna spend some time with them as well.

Leo Laporte (02:50:51):
Nice. Nice. I'd

Rich Campbell (02:50:52):
Love first the wedding.

Leo Laporte (02:50:53):
Very nice, Richard. Thank you for being here. Paul Thro is@thro.com, T H U r r O t t.com. Join as a premium member, you'll get all of those great articles. He's written about programming windows, which are apparently soon to be part of a larger book, which will be published@leanpub.com. That's where his field guide to Windows 11 lives now. With a soft center of field guide to Windows 10, right in there. And center. It's the Gooey Car Carmel Center. You can choose your price. Get the greatest book on Windows 10 slash 11 out there. Every week they join us, whether from the Auckland Airport or from their homes in Lower Ji Valley and Katla bc. It's about 11:00 AM Pacific, 2:00 PM Eastern Time on a Wednesday. That'd be 1900 UTC for the next couple of weeks.

(02:51:51):
Anyway, then we go back to summertime and I'll, I'll warn you about that when that happens. You can watch us do live at live dot twi tv. You can also chat with us live. If you're watching live at irc, do twi.tv or in the Club Twit Discord after the fact on-demand versions of the show are available from the website, twit.tv/www. There's also a YouTube channel, youtube.com/windows Weekly might be Windows Weekly Show. If you go to youtube.com/twi, all the shows are linked there. The YouTube's great if you youtube.com/windows weekly. Just Windows Weekly. Okay. Yep. Is there a dash or just one word? Nope, just one word. That's a good place to go if you want to share a clip because that YouTube makes that very easy. And then people can get a link to the whole show and find out more. And of course, see if you subscribe in your favorite podcast player, that's another way to get it. Marco Armed, who wrote one of the most popular podcast players, overcast, is gonna be our guest on Mac Break Weekly next Tuesday. By the way. Yes. Kathy Galles is coming up to talk about the Supreme Court arguments. She's just left the court and will be on the show with us momentarily for this week in Google. So stay tuned for that if you're watching live. Otherwise, we will see you winners and dozers next weekly on Windows Weekly. Bye-Bye.