Tech News Weekly Episode 229 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show. 

Mikah Sargent (00:00:00):
I'm Mikah Sargent from Tech News Weekly, and this week, my co-host Jason Howell and I talked to Kevin Marks of Microformats.org, all about the news at Twitter. There's lots of news to talk about Elon Musk and Twitter, making changes to the way that tweets get embedded and edit. But I mean, there's a lot, there is a lot to cover and then talk to Prafulla Dhariwal and Aditya Rameshprole of OpenAI about DALL•E 2. That is the artificial intelligence engine that lets you type in strange phrases and see amazing artwork outputted. You don't wanna miss this conversation. It's so very cool. Then we head into our stories of the week where we talk about Reddit's place. It's artwork created by the internet in a very collaborative way. And my story of the week about the Senate bill that has big tech shaken in its boots and telling all sorts of interesting stories about how it's going to affect you. Stay tuned for Tech News Weekly.

... (00:01:05):
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Jason Howell (00:01:24):
This is Tech News Weekly episode 229 recorded Thursday, April 7th, 2022.

Mikah Sargent (00:01:30):
This episode of Tech News Weekly is brought to you by it pro TV. It pro TV has everything you need to level up your it skills while you enjoy the journey, visit it pro.tv/t N w for an additional 30% off all consumer subscriptions for the lifetime of your active subscription. When you use the code T N w 30 at checkout

Jason Howell (00:01:50):
And by express VPN, stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. Get your money's worth and secure your online activity by visiting express vpn.com/tn w today and get an extra three months free on a one year package.

Mikah Sargent (00:02:08):
Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly. The show where every week we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I am one of your hosts, Mikah Sargent.

Jason Howell (00:02:17):
I'm the other guy, Jason Howell. Good to see you, Mikah. And this week, I don't know that I expected for week to have like Twitter in the news, not just on one story, but so many different directions. Yeah. It was like, like, boom, boom, boom, boom. Everything. Twitter sudden Twitter

Mikah Sargent (00:02:31):
Was popping and not just like popping the normal way that it pops. Yeah. Like news about Twitter was

Jason Howell (00:02:36):
Popping. Yes, indeed. So let's talk all about it. Twitter, you know, as we just said big in the news this week, in some ways the conversation has been somewhat predictable, right? This isn't the first time that we've heard about a possible edit function coming to Twitter. That's been big news this week. In other ways, very unpredictable who would've guessed Elon Musk buying a, nearly a 10% stake in the company joining the board. Although that seems to be kind of influx at the moment, but anyways, we've got a lot to discuss. So today we have Kevin Marks open web advocate and co-founder of micro formats joining this show. It's good to have you here, Kevin. Thank you.

Kevin Marks (00:03:14):
Nice those to be here again. It's been a while. Yeah.

Jason Howell (00:03:16):
See you. It is. It's good to see you too. And I should also mention you're gonna be on this week and Google next week as well. So you're gonna double dose of Kevin Marks over the course of the coming week. So thank you. And perfect timing, especially you had actually kind of reached out initially because you had posted about all the things happening primarily about kind of this edit facility that's, that's the conversation happening at Twitter, right? It now, so let's start there. And I think this conversation, it's easy to think that we're gonna go into edit button button functionality, but it actually goes into different directions, which I think are even more compelling. At least at this point you wrote on your site, Kevin march.com about the type of editing that's happening right now, not just in edit button, but changes that Twitter is making behind the scenes. That's impacting embeds on other sites. Tell us a little bit about the API contract that Twitter has apparently broken very recently as a result.

Kevin Marks (00:04:13):
So this, this is quite a subtle thing. The way Twitter embeds work is you copy the embed out with the top right corner of the tweet, and it gives you a block of HTML to put into your site. And that has a block quote and then the actual text of the tweet and the link, and then it strip link that calls Twitters widgets JS, which when that runs, it looks for those block quotes with the, with the, with the Twitter tweet on and then it inflates them to look like they, that does it the top there. So it basically inserts an eye frame puts in the Twitter logo and all the links. So looks. So it's basically saying this really is a tweet now before, as you can see that, that second bit there and the yellow, without that script, it would look like this on my site, we are working at button and it would look on everyone's side would look how a block quote looks on their side. So it would use the default styling. You could style it to look more tweet like, but the point is it does it doesn't have, it wouldn't have the real logo and it wouldn't have that presentation you get for the embedded ones. Now the thing that changed was that it used to be when you delete the tweet, that block quote stays there and they don't put the decoration in. But what they've done now is they've put in a blank tweet template when the tweet's deleted. Yes.

Kevin Marks (00:05:32):
And also they're actually removing the block quote text from the, from the, from the side. So if you write a long post with a bunch of quoted tweets in it and refer to them, then those quote tweets disappear and you end up with blank spaces in the, in the middle of your flow. So if you're doing the kind of, you know, journalism, like something like Buzzfeed where they have lots of credit tweets, so you're doing the kind of journalism where you, you are reporting on a conversation that happened, happened partly on Twitter and partly elsewhere, or the tweets, if they've been deleted, will disappear and they turn these white blobs, but also the texts that you are quoting from them will also disappear. And so this means that effectively, Twitter's now edited a lot of, lot of websites and a lot of news websites as well by removing those, those previously quoted tweets.

Kevin Marks (00:06:15):
So yeah, buzz buzz feed it is, is the obvious example. Cause they, they do lots of stories that are, hear all the tweets about this. And if those tweets, if those tweets or those tweet accounts are subsequently deleted, then they end up with these white spaces in it. But a lot of news stories been affected because president Trump's account was suspended and therefore what were anything they were quoting from those was, was showing in that fallback way and is now not, is now been removed from the site entirely, which can make quite a mess of a story. So it's, it's it's, it is, it is a subtle thing in terms of how you, how you think about behaving, but it's, it, it is affecting other people's websites and, and how they, how they use these tweets.

Jason Howell (00:06:59):
I think what strikes me about this is that it seems, it seems like this is something that was merely discovered and not announced. And yeah, and yet which, which tells me that maybe Twitter either they, they wanted to pretend like nothing happened or they truly believe that this wasn't a big deal. And it, it, like, it occurs to me that like so many articles have these embeds in them. And whether it's whether, you know, from a, as a readers, from a reader's perspective, I care less if I'm seeing the actual tweet with the like colorful Twitter, you know, I embed in there what I want is context. And that seems really important. That seems like a very important major change for Twitter to make and not make a whole lot of public knowledge about, I mean, you've, you've been in contact with Twitter engineering about this, what are they saying about this behavior?

Kevin Marks (00:07:56):
Well, so I, I noticed this about a week ago, the 30th, I think it was cause I was looking at one of my old, one of my old posts for some reason. It, and I noticed that the, the, I had a, I had a post where I quote listen some tweets and then the response to them. And then the first two tweets and the thread got deleted because they were out of, again, the person realized they were out of order, but so the quotes were there and I went back and looked at that post. And instead of those quotes, they were, they were white, which I thought was odd. And so I looked at it and I posted a tweet adding in Twitter engine to, to, to point this out. And I got one response from a Twitter PM saying that they're doing it to better respect when people have chosen to delete their tweets and very student have better messaging.

Kevin Marks (00:08:41):
That explains why the content is no longer available and my DMS are open. So I, I responded to that in the thread and I sent some DMS as well, but I haven't heard anything further. And in fact, Ella Harding hasn't tweeted since that tweet. So you know, maybe, maybe she's she's away or something, I dunno, but that's, that's the, that's the communication I've had with them. And, and some of the other people who've reported on this have, have called Twitter about this and not had a direct response. So, so, you know, a week later I, when they were started talking about tweet editing, I wrote this, this post up to, to sort of give the examples and the details. Cause the, the tricky thing is, is that when they, when they first designed this post they spent a bit quite a bit of time thinking about it.

Kevin Marks (00:09:22):
Ben ward, who implemented the feature is a is a, a micro perform guy like me and works on, on the web is of that era. And he thought a lot about how you quote things and other people's sites now that should work. And the way he is actually quite clever. Cause the point is the block quote is the official hypo H way of citing somebody else. If you put a block quote in, then you are saying, I'm quoting this and there's a standard way of marking that up. But then he looks for the ones that are labeled Twitter tweet and inflates them into this thing that says, this really is a tweet, look, here's a Twitter logo on it. It looks like a tweet. It has all the button as you would use to retweet and respond to it and so on.

Kevin Marks (00:09:58):
So that is that was a smart move. But he also thought about the case of when you delete the tweet. And he said at the time, what did he say? He said, is this quite a good one? The embed code is a block growth, 10, this tweet content, if it's deleted or a thousand years in the future, the text remains. So he was thinking about longevity and, and the, the sort of structure of the web for that. And then what's, what's happening is they've basically broken that contract. And they've, you know, also they, they say this on the site where they talk about how the embed stuff works. They, they say that if the tweet is deleted, they will not display rendered tweet. So they have broken the way the API works without announcing it. And you know, I think, you know, obviously they're experimenting with it and, and trying it out, but I think, yeah, I think this is a fail experiment.

Kevin Marks (00:10:48):
I think this is, this is a bad idea. And part of it is that if they're trying to respect when people delete their tweets, I understand that, but that doesn't mean, I think the not fleshing it out into a full tweet, preserves that ambiguity, which is a little subtle it's basically I can create a block quote that says anything and attributed it to somebody. And my site will, could show that. And then, you know, people do this all the time. But if, but if, if the tweet has gone, then Twitter, won't be confirming that. That's what it said. I think that's the right level of ambiguity if someone deletes it. Whereas removing the text of the tweet from my side is, is overreaching there. Because as I say, it's part of the, it's part of a historic conversation. And then, and, and the same thing will happen if you, if you take your aren't private then the tweets will no longer show up and so on.

Kevin Marks (00:11:41):
So they, the, the, the nuance is, is there for the ment combinations. Cause some people take their accounts, private or public at different points. And then, then the, the link through will disappear and the verification will spit and it'll come back if they make it public again. So it's a, a dynamic thing that makes sense as Twitter saying, yes, this really is a, is still a public tweet. The, the, and I, you know, I understand that, that, you know, Twitter, Twitter are thinking be more and better about how to deal with conversations on the site and, and when people quote one another and respond to each other in different ways. And I think that's, that's a good thing broadly. I, I think they've been a bit in the past, they've been a bit too extreme on the, anyone gonna say anything to anyone, it's your problem to deal with it. And they're, they're working to improve that. And I do welcome that, but I think it's overreached to change other people's sites, ESP, you know? Yeah. I will say, especially new sites, but it's not just new sites. It's, you know, ones, yeah. Anyone who's quoting conversations or, or putting stuff up there.

Jason Howell (00:12:36):
And I mean, there, there is the argument that, you know, this, this was never, this never originated with us to begin with, right. Like it was always kind of within Twitter's wheel, you know control, let's say same as like YouTube and beds. We've gone through this before, but I mean, that's an argument for the open web, which is something that you are very passionate about. And I think from my perspective, this really indicates the direction of Twitter, you know, it's, it also probably makes a lot of sense why suddenly the edit button is a part of their, their internal conversation. They're being more public about, oh yeah. Okay. You know what we're working on at edit button because they dedicat to permanence is not, is perhaps not what it used to be. And

Kevin Marks (00:13:20):
I think it's part that I think the other thing is that this, this, this was designed when tweets were 140 characters and that was it, you know, this was, yeah, that's true. 2011, this was, this was out. And so you could actually express that in a block quote, quite straightforwardly, whereas a tweet now can have entire these in it, or lock threads of discussions and poll and things. So there's some value in them decorating it beyond just, you know, saying this is from Twitter, but that, but also could imply that the block quote, you copy could have a richer version of it in there as well. So that the block quote would show you something, even if the if, if it's sort of beyond the text of the tweet, but that would be, that would be a bit more work for them to work out.

Kevin Marks (00:13:57):
Yeah. but I think the other part of it is the, the, the challenges that people have, you know, Twitter has encouraged people to use, use it as a, a, a place on the public record. They've been verifying counts to say, this really is this person speaking and that kind of thing. Yeah. That's it. And, and, you know, done, done that labeling. I said, that's you, you know, you see, you see tick marks on the quoted tweets and so on. So that, that is both saying that, yes, this was a real tweet. And it was said by this person who we've done some effort to, to say is the person that, that is there. So they've put their, a premature on it in that way of saying is a bit more reliable than a, a quote on the site. And that's fair enough.

Kevin Marks (00:14:40):
And that's, that is a useful service. You know, there, there is some value in them being, no, this is the unambiguous version of that person posting on Twitter. But when it's been deleted, just, just making it, just taking that away is good. But if they're gonna start letting you edit post, that gets trickier. If other sites that have allowed, post-editing keep the edit history. And so you can look at that and see what's happened there. And that's important. Cause otherwise, if you don't have that, you can do all kinds of nasty tricks, like completely changing the meaning of a, of a post. And and then it appearing in a thread of responses to say the opposite of what it said before. And then you can, then you can say, look, these people are agreeing with this, this terrible thing where in fact it was, they were agreeing with something else that was Anine that was said earlier. And that there's, you know, that's happened a lot. There's lots of cases of that had happening in the past. And I'm sure Twitter are thinking about that as they go to think about editable posts, but it's something you need to be very aware of. You need to be able to say this person was just pulling into this earlier version of this post, right.

Jason Howell (00:15:42):
Some

Kevin Marks (00:15:43):
Sort of trial, and here, here are the here's the edit difference and things like that. And it's, it's, it's, it's not, you know, yeah. I'm not saying so solve problem. It's something something other side have, have dealt with before and thought about and showing it at histories. And, and I'm, I'm assuming that Twitter has got a reasonably smart group of people who are thinking about that there. So I think that will, that probably work. Okay.

Jason Howell (00:16:02):
Well, it'll be really interesting to see how this develops, and I think the way that you lay this out, you structured this on your website has at least called a lot more at a, to this idea of this lack of permanence. I, we, we have a, we have another interview that that's coming on the, on the heels of yours. So I do have to kind of cut this short, but I just wanna tell everybody, Kevin Marks, you're gonna be on this. We in Google this next Wednesday. And I guarantee you, this is going to be a big topic of conversation because this continues to be a pretty big issue.

Kevin Marks (00:16:33):
Sure. One thing I would say is if you are gonna quote tweets, send the tweet to internet archive and archive.ph as well. So you then got a separate, external record of if it existing and that way you can link to that to say, no, it really did say that. Cause otherwise you are in the state of, did it really say that at that time, if site that actually crawls it at that point, which you can, of both of those to do that, that will be a way to, to basically set up a separate third party arbiter. If this was really said

Jason Howell (00:16:59):
Some sort of external validation that has a lot more likelihood of persisting long term let's hope. So anyways, internet archive don't ever go away really wanna thank you for carving out some time for us tonight where you are, Kevin Marks a micro for it's dot org or Kevin marks.com is where you can find his blog, his post his article on this behavior. So Kevin, thank you so much. And we'll see you next week on twig.

Kevin Marks (00:17:24):
Thank you. See you then.

Mikah Sargent (00:17:26):
Yes. Thank you so much, Kevin. Up next, we are going to look at AI generated art. It's the latest from OpenAI and it's super cool. Can't wait to talk to the folks at OpenAI about it, but we are gonna take a quick break so I can tell you about it. Pro TV, who are bringing you this episode of Tech News Weekly, the world of it it's colossal and it's always changing. You probably know that. So where do you start to get the updated certs and training you need? Whether you're a seasoned it professional or you're just getting started. I've got the answer, it's it pro TV. It's the online learning it education platform. You need to advance your skills. And it, it pro TV has seven studios and they film Monday through Friday. So they're always producing new content to help you learn.

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Mikah Sargent (00:19:58):
I just joined the wait list for a very exciting project from OpenAI. Imagine a duck balancing a top a beach ball. Okay. While eating popcorn. Okay. Yeah, I see those all the time. You might be able to imagine that, but maybe you couldn't quickly illustrate it. You couldn't quickly create it. Well, DALL•E 2 is the sort of latest iteration of OpenAI's Dolly system. And my God does it make amazing things? Yeah, it's cool. One of the researcher on DALL•E 2 is joining us today, it's Prafulla Dhariwal who is here with us and thank you so much for being here.

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:20:40):
Thanks, Mikah. Yeah, glad to be. 

Mikah Sargent (00:20:43):
So of course, this thing is amazing. And I think that the, the best way to start is by sort of that, that old technique of, of pretend I'm a second grader. How would you describe DALL•E 2, to me if you were trying to kind of explain how it works, what it does and what magic can be made with it.

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:21:06):
So if you, if you give DALL•E 2 kinda a description, it produces an image that would, you know, look like this description. So if, if, if I, as a kid, I'm trying to imagine a scene with a, with a person, with a dog just staring at the stars, DALL•E 2 will kind of produce this imagination on like a canvas for you. I would show it to you what it looks like.

Mikah Sargent (00:21:30):
So it's, it is a, a way to create artwork wholesale out of just me giving that artwork a prompt. Right?

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:21:40):
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:21:40):
Okay. So see, I think that's what makes this so interesting is you've got multiple things going on here and I'm hoping you can kind of break it down for us because you know what an example of this is when I try to talk to Siri, sometimes Siri doesn't even understand what I'm saying. And so you have to use kind of specific wording to get Siri, to respond, how you want it to respond here. You, there are some examples on the site that we're showing now on screen an astronaut lounge in a tropical resort in space, and then a third bit of, bit of of cue to pull up all of these different images that were generated using this. So are we working with both a natural language understanding, and then where does it kind of go from there when it, it can take and understand what you're saying? How did you, you folks work to make it, then also create the artwork that it's able to create?

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:22:35):
So I like to queue in my colleague here, who's also here on the call with us who can actually tell you a little more about how we did this.

Mikah Sargent (00:22:42):
Excellent.

Aditya Ramesh (00:22:45):
Thanks Praful yeah, so a year ago we released a system called Dolly which was a large neural network trained on a diverse data set of text and images. So the cool thing that we found is that a single neural network was capable of a diverse range of different types of image generation capability is for example anthropomorphizing vegetables, like an illustration of a dicon radish in a du to walking a dog combining unrelated concepts, like within avocado, armchair and so on. So prole, Alex and I have been working for the past year on a new iteration of this system that we calling DALL•E 2.

Mikah Sargent (00:23:31):
Okay. So yeah, I was actually hoping I'm, I'm glad you, you got there because folks may have heard about Dolly. This version of course, is DALL•E 2. Could you just explain just a little bit more about what has changed in this second iteration that was not available kind of in, at, at the beginning with, with the first rendition of Dolly.

Aditya Ramesh (00:23:54):
Yeah. so DALL•E 2 kind of has two, two superficial differences over from DALL•E 1. So the first is that the outputs are much higher resolution. So Dolly one had an output resolution of 256 pixels, and the outputs were also quite blurry. The second difference is that the latency when interacting with the system is much smaller. So as a user kind of in an interactive feedback loop with the model, it's a lot more enjoyable and experiences more real time.

Mikah Sargent (00:24:31):
Ah, okay. That makes now can you, so, so for someone who has not been able to use this system of course you have shown on the website some really cool prompts, but as I was going through, the one thing that I was just curious about on my own was kind of how this looks for someone. If does someone sit down, is it, is it a, a browser interface? Is it like how are you all engaging, interacting with the system to get it, to pull up these, you know, these prompts in the end, do I simply have flashing cursor and I'm able to type in a phrase and then hit enter and then it makes it happen or does it, how, how does it look from your end?

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:25:12):
So we have a research demo right now, which kind of looks like what you just described. You know, you go to this website, you'll just type in a bunch of words that kind of describe what you want. And like image will pop in a few seconds and you'll be able to select from a few options there. And when you, what you're looking at now on the blog, this in painting interface, in that one, you kind of upload an image and then you can kind of like, just like with the brush, like erase parts of it. And then again, enter a description, oh, Hey, I want a car, this part. And then like from the system, you'll get a new set of just, that will put a card there.

Mikah Sargent (00:25:49):
That is, that's a lot of fun. Yeah, no kidding. That one is what actually kind of blew my mind more than anything on, on the page, because what, what I didn't realize about Dolly is that it is, it's not just completely creating images from wholesale, but you folks have worked out a way to take something that already exists and then understand the shadows the coloring and all of that kind of stuff, and be able to add something to the image. I mean, I, I think about there's this hilarious person, I think originally on Twitter, on Reddit at other places where people would ask that person to do a Photoshop up job and the person would do a jokey Photoshop job based on what they recommended. And now it's like, I could pull this off myself with this. Yeah. Right. It's so cool. So my question for you is a as two researchers who worked on this project, what do you hope to do with DALL•E 2? What is, what was kind of the goal in creating this? Was it just simply, Hey, we wanna show that AI can do some pretty incredible things, or did you go into it with specific tasks that you hoped to have this achieve in the end?

Aditya Ramesh (00:27:00):
I guess broadly one of the goals of OpenAI is to develop artificial general intelligence and release it in a way that's both safe and maximally beneficial to humanity. And you know, humans don't just work with text. We're also very visual. And a lot of what's important to us in the world is, is given in the form of images. And so Dolly is kind of with a step in that direction to incorporate images and the visual world into the models that we're building, but also a step in the direction of figuring out as we develop more powerful models, how what kind of interfaces should be designed for people to use them because as time moves forward, both society and AI will, will kind of evolve. And COAPT with feedback from one kind of channeling research and research resulting in other interfaces and more powerful interfaces for people to work together with AI.

Mikah Sargent (00:27:56):
Absolutely. Now this is just a, kind of a fun question. I'm curious if there have been any particularly interesting outcomes that you've had with DALL•E 2, where you kind of went, oh, I wasn't expecting that. That was what was going to be created or that, that would be the, the, the generated art from the piece. Is there any any ones that, that come to mind off the top of your head that just kinda had you go, huh?

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:28:21):
I'm remembering the, the coffee machines at it there. Do you remember the ones? It was a kind of very backy prompt, right? What was it like coffee machines sucking human souls or something?

Aditya Ramesh (00:28:31):
Actually, that

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:28:32):
One was scary prompt.

Aditya Ramesh (00:28:33):
That one was an espresso machine that makes coffee from human souls.

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:28:37):
Oh,

Mikah Sargent (00:28:37):
Wow. That's awesome. Sounding not to take the whole AI is coming for your souls thing too, too far, but no, I think that's, that's, that's funny. And I love that, that leads us perfectly into the last question that I have for you because you folks, I mean, OpenAI in general, you just mentioned are kind of trying to make a safe future where AI is a part of it. And so there may be folks out there going, oh, my good, this it's coming for our artists next it's coming for this. It's coming for that. Do, do people need to be worried about AI overlords when they look at Siri or the, the Google assistant, which I know is a whole different kind of thing. And in many cases does not feature a whole lot of AI. They, they are like, okay, we have nothing to worry about, but when you look at so like this and, and the, the sort of perceived skill that exists, there may be some concern. So what do you tell a person who's kind of has this, this low grade kind of terror about the future of AI as AI researchers?

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:29:41):
I mean, I feel like our aim here was more to provide a tool that people can use. Like, I, I think Dali can be used to supplement creativity. Like, you know, you could have an idea and you could brainstorm with Dali to produce even more ideas and do more powerful things with it. So these, these tools kinda can, I feel like provide you opportunity more ways to, you know, kinda idea and discover new things. And the kinda, you know, like I, if I wanna produce a painting to hang in my house or something, I won't be able to produce this myself, but with the tool like this, I, I can, I can do that. So I feel like at the same time, you know, it's, it's all replace an actual painter on an actual artist. Like they can use this system to create new things. I wouldn't like think that, you know, these systems are gonna replace these professions anytime soon.

Jason Howell (00:30:37):
Yeah. I have a, a question actually, I'll, I'll direct this to you ATT there's this idea that I'm really fascinated with around AI and creativity, which is that as these systems continue to get more and more you know, progress down this line where it's becoming harder and harder to determine human touch inside of creativity versus is a machine's creativity. I start to wonder at what point humanity or people will be willing to accept art that comes from the hands or the virtual hands of machines, let's say in the same way that we do art, that comes from a human being. I'm curious to know your thoughts on that because you, what you have created here is a tool that brings us closer to that reality. Obviously it's not creating something from scratch, it's based on a, you know, a training set, but that's certainly gotta be somewhere down in the pipeline. And maybe that's the, you know, the potential future, you know, destination of Dolly somewhere years down the, down the line. But how do you feel like, how do you feel about the potential of in the future? We as humans accepting the art that comes from a machine or a system like Dolly?

Aditya Ramesh (00:31:53):
That's a really good question. I think, I mean, like a human, the system is basically ingesting all of the things that it saw and it's source of creativity. It kind of comes from the diverse sets of concepts that it's encountered during the training process. And so, you know, on one hand, it's, it's great because you know, you could combine together art styles or, you know, think of create creations, like the espresso machine making you from human souls or like a cat submarine chime or, or things like that, which, which may have not existed. But yeah, I'd say it's difficult to kind of answer the question as to how, how people will kind of accept it and, you know, integrate it into a part of human culture. I feel like we're just at the beginning of this and agreed, you know, we're facing this out slowly. And since the technology is so new, I think you probably as, as good of an idea as, as I do about, about how, how this will go.

Jason Howell (00:33:03):
Yeah. Yeah. Someone in our chat room actually pointed out if people can be convinced to invest in this is CR one, by the way in our chat room, if people can be convinced to invest in imaginary currencies, I doubt there will be very much resistance to AI art. Look, I'm super excited about all these, these new posters I'm gonna, like, I love dogs. And if I could have dog art all over my wall with dogs doing different things, like I can wait unique to you. Yeah. I am so pumped at what you've created here. I think it's incredible. I, like I said, I joined the wait list cuz I just wanna have fun with it. So sometime down the line, I'll hopefully be able to do that, but I wanna thank you both for taking some time today to talk to us prole Dowa and ADI Ramish. Thank you for joining us here today. Of course folks can head to OpenAI.com to learn more about DALL•E 2, but if they wanted to follow you online, is there a way that they could do that?

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:33:56):
Find us on Twitter?

Aditya Ramesh (00:33:58):
Yeah. my handle is model underscore mechanic, but you can find me by my phone name.

Jason Howell (00:34:05):
Awesome. All right. Well thank you both. We appreciate your time and I'm looking forward to seeing what you create in the future. Yes I am too. Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

Prafulla Dhariwal (00:34:17):
Thanks.

Jason Howell (00:34:19):
All right. Well, and actually next story kind of veers into similar directions, which we're gonna talk about a place on Reddit called well place, definitely worth checking out. But first this episode techniques weekly is brought to you by express VPN. If you're watching Netflix without using express VPN, well, it's kind of like you're going to the casino and you're only being able to play on the slot machines, which quite frankly, that's, that's boring to me. I don't wanna just play on the slot machines. I wanna play on all the other things. Why limit yourself like that? The big money's somewhere else. Now you can control where you want Netflix and other streaming websites to think you're located. That's just one of the many awesome functions of a VPN. It really comes in handy for sites like Netflix, cuz it gives you access.

Jason Howell (00:35:06):
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Jason Howell (00:35:55):
And that ended up being a big deal, but it was like, no friends is going away. Well, if you're in the UK, you could still watch it on, on Netflix. But you know, no matter what, if you have a V a good VPN like express VPN which by the way, they make an app for your TV, for your computer, for your phones, whatever you happen to be using, you just select that country's name, cuz express VPN has all, all sorts of different locations for for access. And then you tap a single button, you refresh the page and boom, it refreshes with that country's content and you can watch all that you want pretty awesome stuff. Definitely. And, and it's also kind of a fun fun kind of game to play it up. Your favorite streaming service, see what you see activate that VPN in a different location.

Jason Howell (00:36:44):
And you might actually discover shows you didn't even know existed, not just shows that you've heard of. And you're like, oh yeah, great. I can watch the Wolf of wall street, but you know, you're gonna find you're gonna get access to entirely different content that might not even be available at all. Might not even be translate it potentially. I don't know, but that's the fun of it. So definitely check it out. Why express VPN? Well, they've got blazing fast speeds. So you can stream in, in high definition with zero buffering, they're compatible with all your devices. Like I said, you can get it on pretty much every, almost every device that you have, phones, laptops consoles smart TVs and more, they have servers in 94 different countries. That means that's 94 different places that you can throw that on and see what you have access to.

Jason Howell (00:37:27):
It also works with other streaming services, not just Netflix, of course, BBC's, iPlayer YouTube and a whole lot more. I, you know, I've been using express VPN for years. Actually have the router, have the express VPN router. So I'm protected at the router level and yeah, it just it's good peace of mind outside of like getting access to streaming content. It's just good peace of mind to know that I have more control over who sees me and my family's out activity, internet activity lines. So, so be smart, stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. Get your money's worth@expressvpn.com slash TNW. Don't forget to use our link. That's E X, P R E S S P express vpn.com/t N w. And you can get an extra three months free when you do that.

Jason Howell (00:38:25):
So that's a nice little bonus that you get there as well. Express VPN is awesome. Check it out for yourself. And we thank express VPN for their support of Tech News Weekly. All right. So we're gonna keep things in the creative realm here. I thought this was pretty cool. And actually I have to give Leo credit because he, he did mark this for twig yesterday and they didn't end up talking about it. I wouldn't be surprised if he talks about it a little bit on TWI this weekend, but I just, when I started reading up on it, I thought it was super cool. Do you remember the million dollar homepage? I think it was called the million dollar homepage. This was early two thousands. No, I do not remember the million dollar homepage. Okay. Little history time. There was once upon a time, I think this was 2005 a creator by the name of Alex two created a site and he basically said there is a million pixels on this page and I'm selling one pixel for a dollar and I'm gonna sell all of them.

Jason Howell (00:39:21):
Hopefully this was his, I hopefully this was his idea. So this was the million dollar webpage. And the idea from the beginning was if I could sell each pixel on this page for a dollar, it's essentially like an ad placement, you know? Yeah. Then I'd make a million dollar. Yeah. It turned out to totally work for him. And of course, everybody that saw this was like, why didn't I think that that's amazing. That's brilliant. Right. So it was just cool. Not to mention it created this like cool kind of kaleidoscope of pixel art and everything. People got really creative with it. And of course, once it started to kind of gain momentum, then everybody wanted to be a part of the, the million homepage. Well, Reddit has something similar, not necessarily because it's making anybody any money outside of Reddit, but it looks a lot like that homepage and is way more dynamic and just a lot more fun.

Jason Howell (00:40:10):
It's a sub Reddit called place. And this was actually created back in April full as an April fools experiment back in 2017. Hmm. It reemerged this year. And it's just so cool. The idea is that any user, any Reddit user can post one single pixel or, or they call it a tile on this blank canvas at place after that pixel is. So I go on there, I place a single pixel, a red pixel on this particular part of the grid. I must then wait five minutes before I can place another. And so what this does is it requires collaboration with others in order to actually create something meaningful. It's in a, in a sense it's like an orchestration of creativity. And what you're seeing right now is, is a little bit of an animation of kind of its existence. And I can't remember, is this the link that I put in there? The 24 hour link? No,

Mikah Sargent (00:41:04):
This is from the sub itself. I went to the sub

Jason Howell (00:41:07):
Itself.

Mikah Sargent (00:41:08):
Got it. You kind of view it, like I can

Jason Howell (00:41:10):
Scroll. So this is like the whole, the whole creation of it. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:41:13):
And this is like kind of process. The different points is every point they added like a new section of it. Yeah. This is like time. They, when they added the second section and then if I were to go further they add a whole section down below.

Jason Howell (00:41:24):
Right. And so it just continues and evolves. And it's just so fascinating to me. So once this was kind of coming back, other Reddits subreddits, like our Ukraine, subreddits, star wars trees trans community, everybody kind of decided as a community to come together and figure out what they wanted to do on this canvas. Cause you start

Mikah Sargent (00:41:48):
To see things forming and you can go, oh yeah, this is what I wanna add. And

Jason Howell (00:41:52):
Yes, exactly. They had to kind of like, and they had to collaborate, right? Because if you're only dropping a pixel every five minutes, you need a team to create anything around that idea, that vision. So

Mikah Sargent (00:42:03):
I was watching some of these people do it live on Twitch.

Jason Howell (00:42:06):
Exactly.

Mikah Sargent (00:42:07):
And it was really amazing to see like the Spanish community, the French community, essentially like all these different communities coordinate in real time, getting their community members in their chat to actually go and like place pixels while it's happening and also attack the other attack and actually like whole coordination between like 50,000 to over 200,000 viewers concurrently on different streams.

Jason Howell (00:42:31):
Totally. Yes. Right. It in, in real time watching all this happen by the way that voice is John Ashley who produces behind the scenes usually does not talk on the show. So it's good to be

Mikah Sargent (00:42:41):
No, but this is, this is really cool. Like watching, I was watching the entire weekend. It was just crazy. Yeah. This is having real time.

Jason Howell (00:42:47):
It's pretty neat. I love it. Like you said, nothing is permanent on here. So the idea that like, if I, if you know, my group CLA you know, started dropping pixels and started creating this thing that took us all day to create another group could very easily come along and coordinate to either wipe it out, or they could coordinate to put something over it or outta mustache, or put 3d glasses on it or whatever. And it's just this, like this kind of evolving image. That's never perfectly stable because

Mikah Sargent (00:43:17):
It is, it still live.

Jason Howell (00:43:18):
I that's a good question. Twitter had put out a post to say, Reddit, we present to you the final R slash place 2022 canvas, which actually tells me that it's probably locked at this at

Mikah Sargent (00:43:32):
This point. So it, it locked, it finished up around on Monday. You can still go back to our slash place and see the archive image as well as, as I was showing earlier. Right.

Jason Howell (00:43:43):
The history,

Mikah Sargent (00:43:43):
These higher process from beginning to end.

Jason Howell (00:43:45):
Yeah. So cool though. But you know, when you watch the animation, you start to see these images that are just so complex, you know, appearing in a certain portion of it. And you're like, oh, that's so cool. And then suddenly it gets wiped out, like completely, all that hard work just gets wiped out, you know, and it becomes something else or becomes just a big red blob cuz someone came in there. And, and just like, it, it just completely transformed it. And then, and then you would end up seeing those images that were there before reemerge, you know, it's like, then Nope, we're getting it back. Yes. And you know, it comes back at everything. It's just a, it's literally, it's like a living art canvas that, that, you know, I would be curious to see this experiment never ending if it just kept going and going. Although from a moderation standpoint, I, I have to imagine there's, there's a lot of challenges with something like this, but that is one of the interesting things. Something that didn't really happen thanks to the community were takeovers by those who wished to use that canvas for things like symbols of hate and, and stuff like that, that didn't really happen. That's

Mikah Sargent (00:44:49):
Cool.

Jason Howell (00:44:49):
Cuz you got enough people kind of policing this. Right. And for the, for the greater good of the canvas. And I think it just prevented that from happening interesting factoid, the place was actually created by now internet famous, Josh Wardle who created world. He used to be, he used to work at Reddit and this was his creation while he was there.

Mikah Sargent (00:45:09):
That's a need. That's really cool.

Jason Howell (00:45:11):
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:45:11):
Good for old Josh.

Jason Howell (00:45:13):
Yeah, totally. He's he's definitely getting his recognition nowadays. Right? Like absolutely. He went for a person you've never heard of to suddenly like, wait a minute. You did that too. Mr.

Mikah Sargent (00:45:22):
War world did the place

Jason Howell (00:45:24):
Mr. Wardle in the place. And then just before I, I wrapped this, some stats, 16 million tiles placed in the first year. So the first time they did this, it was 16 million tiles this year, 72 million tiles by 6 million users, 2.5 million tiles per hour. Wow. Wow. There you go. Pretty cool. Creative thing that can only exist a

Mikah Sargent (00:45:50):
Collaborative creative thing. Very cool. Very, very cool.

Jason Howell (00:45:53):
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent (00:45:55):
All right. With that, we have reached the end of Jason's story of the week. My story of the week is up next. All right. My story of the week this week is about the latest, well, I, I shouldn't say the latest cuz it's one of several Senate bills, but it's one that is big tech pretty, pretty heavily. It's called the American innovation and choice online act a I C O a. I don't know if that has any kind of fun sound to it. A cool.

Mikah Sargent (00:46:27):
I don't think it's meant to be pronounced that way. But this, this is I like how wired put it. It says, if you wanna know how worried an industry is about a piece of pending legislation, a decent metric is how apocalyptic its predictions are about what the bill would do by that standard. Big tech is deeply troubled by the American innovation and choice online act. So this is the, the bill that was introduced by Amy Klobuchar and Chuck Grassley, which are the top Democrat and Republicans on the Senate judiciary committee, respectively. So it's a bipartisan bill and it is aimed at making sure that big tech players are not able to prioritize their own stuff, be it content or actual goods over the stuff of other companies who need to use their services in order to exist online.

Mikah Sargent (00:47:25):
So you can think of it as like Google, not being able to prioritize YouTube videos over Vimeo or some other site, if the relevancy is not there. It, it, it's, it's an interesting thing because the bill itself is incredibly vague, but that was done on purpose because this is one of those bills that is aimed at having a group be in charge of this, in this case, it's the federal trade commission. So basically it says, Hey, FTC, your job is to figure out the details we are making the bill that directs you to figure out those details and make this possible. And then also gives these groups bite in terms of being able to Sue a company that does not follow through with what goes for the, as, as we said, you know, you can tell how big of a deal it is based on what the companies are saying.

Mikah Sargent (00:48:17):
Companies are saying that it would ruin Google search results. It would bar apple from offering useful features on iPhones. It would force Facebook to stop moderating content and it would even outlaw Amazon prime. That was another quote from wired. Now that obviously was a little bit of a fear for me because I do use Amazon prime and I do get a lot of value out of that service. And wired actually quoted an article or a research from e-marketer who said that more, more than 150. Lemme try that again, more than 150 million Americans, which is more than half of the adult population of America use Amazon prime. They are Amazon prime subscribers. So there's a lot of people who would be bothered by that going away, but there's nothing to suggest that Amazon prime would truly have to go away.

Mikah Sargent (00:49:15):
What the argument is is that the, there are companies who in, you may, if you've gone to Amazon before and you've looked up an item and you can see there's a a line that says ships from, and there's a line that says sold by and typically Amazon prime items a items that offer prime shipping have at least shipped from Amazon. And of course in the case where it's shipped from Amazon and sold by Amazon, then in that case, it is also prime, but it at least needs to say shipped from Amazon. And that is a specific thing called FBA fulfillment by Amazon. What happens is third party retailers on the platform send their goods to Amazon and Amazon is in charge of the shipment and all of the logistics. So a company basically gives over its stock to Amazon that way they can offer that multi-day fulfillment.

Mikah Sargent (00:50:08):
And or that, that, you know, two day, one day shipping be cause of the fulfillment by Amazon, Amazon argues that FBA is something that would be prohibited in this law. That's not necessarily the case though. So sellers who want to use FBA fulfillment by Amazon, that thing that makes it so that you've got prime shipping on items that aren't sold by Amazon they have to pay for that. And the Senate bill prohibits a company from being able to offer preferred status or placement on the covered platform dependent on the, or use of other products or service services. So they argue that they will have to stop offering FBA fulfillment by Amazon, but there are some other experts including submit Sharma from consumer reports who says what the bill would do in that case would be to force Amazon to develop a system on its marketplace so that sellers can choose alternative fulfillment partners like DHL or FedEx or USPS or whatever.

Mikah Sargent (00:51:16):
And then they'll have to ensure that what they show in the search results is not influenced by who's fulfilling the order, as long as I'm getting it within a day or two or whatever, they can still have prime membership. So Amazon claims that no, no, no, no, we can't do this. We'll have to stop offering FBA. All of you people out there more than half of all adults in the United States will not be able to will not be able to go through with this. And I just have to stop for a second and say I'm very excited to learn that the Senate has confirmed Katan brown Jackson as the first black woman to serve on the Supreme court. So that's super awesome. Nice. Hazah anyway, so Amazon of course is the big company that's up at arms about this.

Mikah Sargent (00:52:03):
But Google is worried that it means that their revenue is going to be cut because they will have to not prioritize their content or the content that companies pay to have in, in the piece. And essentially what's so interesting about this to me is for every argument that the big tech companies are making about how this is a bad thing. There's some other was saying, no, no, no, no, this law doesn't prevent that, or it doesn't prevent what they're saying. It prevents they're going the, the big tech seems to be going for the, you know, the absolute worst outcome or in some cases, a little bit of a what's the word, I mean, simply dishonest to sort of melodramatic is the word I, I was looking for a very mellow dramatic outcome that is not necessarily the case. So I,

Jason Howell (00:52:56):
Right. Yeah. Like, I, I would be curious, you know, Amazon saying, oh, well, if this happened, then we'd have to get rid of rid of FBA. I would be curious to the, to like, take that comment and then have it happen. Like, you know, of course, you know, like this is, this is a fake magical world that, that we live in, in our minds, but have them say that, have a, have this this happen and then would they really get rid of it? Yeah. Are they really gonna get rid, are they really gonna get rid of it?

Mikah Sargent (00:53:22):
Are they going to be directed to get rid

Jason Howell (00:53:24):
Of FBI? Yeah, yeah. Or, or they're gonna stick to their guns and be like, well, no, we gotta prove that this was a bad idea. No, they're not gonna do that.

Mikah Sargent (00:53:30):
No,

Jason Howell (00:53:31):
They're not gonna do that.

Mikah Sargent (00:53:32):
It's it. That's the thing. What is fascinating to me is it used to be the case that the way that companies were able to influence government was strictly through lobbying and strictly through going to Congress and, and making those deals and those changes and stuff like that there. And now we continue to see so much of that. Also being thrown our way. And now it's a, it's a public argument that takes place. In fact, just this morning, as we were getting ready for the show, I saw a a notification from apple where they were quoting. Let me see if I can find it now. They were quoting, I've got every single places taking up every, every single one of my history items. Good. God, I didn't think I clicked on it that many times. Here we go.

Mikah Sargent (00:54:34):
Apple report finds third party apps, see global success on the app store. And the reason why that's worth bringing up is because currently apple is essentially being accused of making its apps the priority and that its apps get more viewership. And because they're already downloaded and installed on the phone, then that's prioritizing da, da, da. So just this morning, April 7th apple put out a thing from economists analysis group who said, look, third party apps actually see or among the most successful apps on the app store. And it's just funny to me because there's only two options there. It's like the, the 20, the 60 apps that apple has. And then the 1.8 million apps that the third party has. So the numbers there, like, of course the third party apps are going to be successful because of the saturation of third party apps.

Mikah Sargent (00:55:31):
But anyway, it's watching this now play out where you, you are trying to get public opinion more so than ever before because of how easy it is to reach the public and the role that, that plays in these companies. Trying to kind of fight back against the, the government regulations that are in place. So yeah, I, I'm gonna keep an eye on this. Obviously. I think we both will and see how these, these big acts that are coming through American innovation and choice online act. And the other one that is aimed at app store and other antitrust stuff, we'll see how this plays out, but I certainly would not want to be the FTC here.

Jason Howell (00:56:11):
The open app markets

Mikah Sargent (00:56:12):
Act, there it is open act. Yes. Open app markets act open app markets act having to be one of the groups that actually then has to take this nebulous act and turn it into all these rules is interesting. And what I also find fascinating, and this is the last thing I'll say about it is the difference between what is happening now versus what happened back when the movie industry was kicking off when Hollywood was, was kicking off on movies, you know, first kind of hit hit, hit the market and people were starting to get into movies. The government said, oh boy, we might need to figure out some way to regulate this, to make sure that young folks aren't watching movies with choice, with choice themes in them. And so the movie industry said we really don't want the government messing around with this.

Mikah Sargent (00:57:05):
So they themselves came up with the rating system for movies and came up with that whole process and said, look, we're going to regulate this to the, you know, we're gonna be stickler. We're going to make sure that this is done right. And by continuing to prove that they would, then the government never had to go, what a us do that instead. And video games then same kind of deal where they were like, okay, we, we took it from Hollywood, we're gonna do the same thing for the most part. These tech companies have not done regulation of their own to that level. And I think it's mostly because the government for so long did not SU did not really over impose itself on tech, because I, I wonder if there's a, a part of it that the folks that were lawmakers did not take it as seriously as they should have until it was too late. And big tech was big tech, all of a sudden, and now

Jason Howell (00:58:01):
That's, that's my feeling. Yeah. That's absolutely my feeling. It feel like

Mikah Sargent (00:58:05):
It's like, oh, that's over there.

Jason Howell (00:58:06):
Yeah, exactly. That's technology, oh, technology, you know, does a lot of cool things. And by the way, you know, as a, you know, as a country, we're making a lot of money because we are, we are a dominant powerhouse in technology. So let's just let that be. Yep. What it is until it kind of got to the point to where in some ways, big tech has more power, has the cap ability of having more power, more influence we've seen with people than government in ways

Mikah Sargent (00:58:29):
Ukraine we've seen what these tech companies have done to sort of clap back so to speak at Russia. And in some cases it's more damaging than what the governments can do. And I think that while that ended up being a positive of thing overall, because they were able to, and are continuing to be able to do so much, that is also a moment where lawmakers have to go, oh wait, we, you are not necessarily the huge power that we thought we were. So I'm not surprised to see so many bills coming through now.

Jason Howell (00:59:02):
No, they're mine to

Mikah Sargent (00:59:02):
Probably continue to see that.

Jason Howell (00:59:03):
Absolutely.

Mikah Sargent (00:59:04):
You won't continue to see this cuz we're about to wrap up

Jason Howell (00:59:07):
That's right. No, you were in, in about three minutes, you're gonna continue to see something else. Tech News Weekly publishes every Thursday at twit TV slash TN w that is where you can go to subscribe to the show, audio formats, video formats. Although this week I would suggest audio because there's a lot of visual stuff. Hopefully we did a good job explaining what we were looking at and everything, but it's another thing to see it with your own eyes. So twi.tv/t N w to check that out.

Mikah Sargent (00:59:33):
And if you'd like to get all of our shows ad free, yes, every single one of Twitch shows ad free. You should check out club TWI because you will be supporting us directly with seven bucks a month. You get every single one of TWI shows ad free. That's all about Android, Iowa today. Mac break weekly, all the shows, all the good shows, which are all of them. And you also get access to the TWI plus bonus feed that has extra content. You won't find elsewhere. That includes AMAs that we've had all sorts of behind the scenes before the scenes, after the scenes, everywhere else and access to the members only discord server. That's a place where you can go and chat with your fellow club, TWI members. And also those of us here at TWI. If that sounds good to you, head to twi.tv/club TWI to check it out seven bucks a month to sign up.

Mikah Sargent (01:00:19):
And if you're using apple pod S and wants a way to support a show directly, well, you can do that. Go into apple podcast, look up Tech News Weekly, and you will see for the audio version of the feed, you tap on that. And there will be a button that says subscribe for 2 99. When you tap that button and subscribe for 2 99 a month, you'll get the ad free version of the audio feed right there in apple podcasts. If you would like to send me a message. I'm at mic a Sergeant on many, a social media network, or you can do chihuahua.coffee. That's C I hua.coffee, where I've got links to the places I'm most active online. Check me out on Saturday with Leo LePort for the tech guy where we take questions from all around the us and the rest of the world, answering your questions on Tuesdays for iOS today with Rosemary orchard, where we talk all things, iOS TV OS watch OS home pot OS it's look, it's all the OSS that apple

Jason Howell (01:01:11):
OS bottom.

Mikah Sargent (01:01:12):
Yes. What about you, Jason Howell,

Jason Howell (01:01:14):
Find me out Jason Howell on Twitter. Also doing all about Android, twi.tv/aa every Tuesday. And it's really about it. Also producing a bunch of leader shows behind the scenes as well. Big thanks. Big. Thanks to the folks here who help us do this show John Ashley Burke. They were working overtime for today's episode. So really appreciate what they do for, without them. You wouldn't see or hear what you're seeing and hearing right now. Also thanks to you for, without you. We wouldn't have an audience, so thank you for watching and listening. We'll see you next time on Tech News Weekly. Bye everybody. Bye.

Rod Pyle (01:01:53):
Hey, I'm Rod Pyle editor of Ad Astra magazine, and each week I'm joined by Tariq Malik, the editor in chief over at Space.com in our new this week in space podcast. Every Friday, Tariq and I take deep dive into the stories that define the new space age what's NASA up to when will Americans, once again set foot on the moon. And how about those samples in the perseverance Rover? When are those coming home? What the heck has Elon must done now, in addition to all the latest and greatest and space exploration will take an occasional look at bits of space flight history that you probably never heard of and all with an eye towards having a good time along the way. Check us out on your favorite podcast. Catcher.