Tech News Weekly 321 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show. Also names of speakers may be incorrect at times.

0:00:00 - Mikah Sargent
Coming up on Tech News Weekly. I kick off the show by talking to Ana Diaz of Polygon about a very interesting, very controversial game. It's called Palworld and it's a little bit more intense than the name might suggest. I also have a sort of late breaking story of the week. Apple has announced changes to iOS, to Safari, to the App Store if you live in the EU Sideloting finally coming to your iPhone, oh my goodness. Then Sean Hollister of the Verge stops by to talk about the Framework Laptop 16 and he breaks the thing down right in front of us. It's super cool. You really need to stick around for that Easily the most amazing thing to happen on Tech News Weekly in a while. Before I round things out with my last story of the week about New York City declaring something I'm not going to say what a public health hazard. I don't know if you would expect the choice that they made, but all of that is coming up on Tech News Weekly.

0:01:04 - VO
Podcasts you love. From people you trust. This. Is TWiT.

0:01:13 - Mikah Sargent
This is Tech News Weekly, episode 321, with Mikah Sargent, recorded Thursday, January 25th 2024. Explaining Palworld's popularity. Hello and welcome to Tech News Weekly, the show where every week, we talk to and about the people making and breaking the tech news. I am your host, Mikah Sargent, and I have to say I think I've got a great show planned for you today. Up first, we are going to talk about a game that is taking the world by storm in many ways. Here, to help us to understand and to explain Palworld is Polygon's own Ana Diaz. Welcome to the show, Ana Diaz.

0:01:55 - Ana Diaz
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about Palworld today.

0:01:59 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, so let's actually kick it off with that. I'd love it if you could tell us, kind of, what is this game? How is it played? What is Palworld? Because from the sound of it it sounds like a cute little I don't know Tamagotchi style game.

0:02:14 - Ana Diaz
Yeah. So I mean, this is kind of what's interesting about the game is, I think a lot of folks had a lot of kind of preformed ideas of what it was like going in. So, before it released, like, what we actually had today is very different than kind of what we imagined. So on the onset, people would kind of like affectionately call it like Pokemon with guns, which it is kind of that. But it's also like this Frankenstein monster of a game that kind of like pulls elements from like the survival genre. There are, you know, monster collecting elements like Pokemon. There are like shooter elements from that feel reminiscent of games like Fortnite. Even so, essentially it's a game where you run around, you try to survive, you catch these monsters, you, you know, work alongside them and also, you know, fight against them.

0:03:01 - Mikah Sargent
So Wow, okay. So yeah, it does sound very involved in terms of trying to understand what all you can do with it. As you said, sort of Frankenstein monster. So, before we kind of dig even more into the game itself, I'm curious how long has Palworld been around and why do you think it has become so popular? Because it just kind of. In fact, it was your colleague, Simone de Rochefort, who quite literally just yesterday introduced me to Palworld and the surrounding controversy that we'll get to shortly. But then, right after I spoke with Simone about this, then suddenly I started seeing Palworld pop up everywhere and I thought, wow, people are really into this game and I just felt like it came from nowhere. But has it been around for a while? And, yeah, what's got people so interested? Is it that Frankenstein quality?

0:03:56 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, I mean. So we saw the first trailer like early looks of it in 2021. So we've at least been aware of it like since then. But the game released in early access last Friday, so on January 19. So like, as far as it being around and people actually like getting their hands on it, that's very new. So like if it feels like it came out of nowhere, like it kind of did, like it's been out for a week and it's already been a massive success.

0:04:22 - Mikah Sargent
Wow, when you say massive success, what are we talking? And then could you help us to understand what massive success looks like in gaming by comparing it, maybe, to some other games that have X amount of downloads or, or, however, purchases?

0:04:35 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, so just like for context, I mean, Palworld has sold over 7 million copies in the first five days and you know, that number is like a little confusing because it's available through subscription pass as well on Xbox Game Pass, so we actually don't know if they're counting those downloads or not. Regardless, that is like an astounding number and, to kind of give something that is like more concrete, that kind of speaks to the popularity of this game. The game surpassed it's available for download on the Game Storefront, steam, and on there it surpassed 2 million concurrent players and on in the history of that entire games platform, it is now the second highest game, like as far as concurrent players goes.

0:05:22 - Mikah Sargent
Do we know the first?

0:05:24 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, it is PUBG.

0:05:26 - Mikah Sargent
Oh my gosh, okay that that explains everything. I don't. I'm not a gamer, so I barely, but I know what PUBG is. I know how popular, and regularly popular, that game is, so that's mind blowing this is. I mean, yeah, let's why. Why do we think that it has become so popular? Or why do you think it's become so popular? Even I want to hold off on the controversy still a little bit, but anything outside of that controversy, is there anything that this game does, or anything that this game does that makes people want it?

0:05:57 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, I mean, I think like it'll be really interesting to look back and kind of analyze this further in depth down the line.

But I think there's like definitely a lot of ways we can kind of explain its success. One is that you know it very much speaks to kind of the Pokemon fandom, and Pokemon fans for a long time have sort of been like missing a more adult, mature version of the series, because it has always been a series that is also child friendly. So that is one possible explanation. Obviously it has a very catchy hook of like an image of pairing these like extremely like imagine like these adorable big guide kind of you know, lamb creatures with, like you know, heavy and drust drill military machine guns. You know like it's definitely striking. But at the end of the day I think to a lot of now it's growing popularity also comes down to the fact that it is like a fun game to play. Like it's on paper it's really trying to do a lot and you know it's an early access. It's still glitchy, it's going to, you know, have its rough patches, but like and more or less works and that's kind of astounding.

0:07:02 - Mikah Sargent
Wow, yeah. So I'd love it if you could tell us a little bit about the history of the game. We'll, of course, have folks check out the link that we have in the show notes to read your whole piece about the history of the game, but as someone who's not a big gamer, I found that fascinating that it is, as you say, kind of a miracle that this thing even came together at all, and if you could compare that maybe to how other games are made, is it bizarre to you as well in terms of what you know about the video game industry?

0:07:36 - Ana Diaz
Oh, 100%.

So like to just to give a little context here to Kuro Mizabe, the CEO and co-founder of PocketPair, which is the development studio that created Pal World, posted a very lengthy kind of like history and retelling of how the game was made.

And, for context, PocketPair is a smaller Japanese independent studio and so, like basically to Kuro's or Mizabe's story just basically went through all the kind of miracles, as Mizabe describes it, that happened throughout development and all of the kind of the conventions they broke throughout the process of making it.

And you know, it's surprising that the game was able to be made this way because, like, even in the history of Japanese game development, there's typically like a lot of structure. It's very hierarchical, you know there's it's, it's very organized, there are production pipelines for assets, whereas with Pal World it's, you know, they were working with hobbyists, like, for example, mizabe hired a part-time convenience store worker as a hobbyist, like after talking to this person, like via X and so, and that person ended up being like a central member of the team. Another unconventional thing is they switched game engines late in the development process, so they basically had to rebuild the game. There was no budget for this game. Like Mizabe in a very striking moment. Mizabe was essentially like our budget is our budget, the budget is until the number hits zero.

0:09:09 - Mikah Sargent
Essentially, Wow, and I mean so. I guess you don't have all of the insights into this, I know, but is it? Did they feel like they had something here, or is it? I'm just curious about kind of the mindset behind deciding to do that until we hit zero. We're just going to keep trying to make this where they was clearly someone at a higher level felt like this was something that needed to be made. If they were pulling from all these different places and making it happen, I don't. I don't even know if there's, you know, much of a question there. It just that part kind of boggled my mind, I guess.

0:09:46 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, well, and to that point Mizabe did comment that, like you know, it's kind of hard to articulate like what stood out about this game, but that the CEO hopes, you know, imagine that this all came together because these people saw something in the game. They saw that it was worthwhile and it was just unique of an idea that it would make it through. So, even though we don't know the inside, you know story of like why this connected with these workers, it's clear that there was. You know, it was interesting enough that it inspired these folks to make this game.

0:10:18 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, Okay, now let's get into it. Let's talk about the controversies surrounding PAL world. Apparently, there are two controversies, one being its similarity to Pokemon and the other being the animal cruelty aspect, which in some ways also applies to Pokemon. What are people saying and how, if at all, is the company itself responding to the controversy?

0:10:48 - Ana Diaz
Yeah. So you know it's a lot of this discourse is happening kind of online on specific social media platforms that have their kind of own specific cultures, and so you know, before we go on, I feel like it's so important to not give the angriest people the loudest voice. Yes, but essentially, kind of what has been happening is a lot of folks have been saying that the game plagiarizes Pokemon, and folks online have, you know, been essentially putting together threads comparing certain PALs that's the name for the creatures in Palworld, pal designs to Pokemon designs, going as far as to kind of even line up the 3d models next to each other and say, hey, this is stealing from Pokemon. And so for some folks it's. You know, they feel like the game maybe isn't original or it's stealing from other places and Is kind of what's behind those sentiments.

As far as the Pokemon plagiarism and as far as the animal cruelty, it's pretty obvious, yeah, it's pretty obvious. Like you see, the promotional images of the games, it's these, you know, the creek, cute creatures with the machine guns, and Also a huge part of the game is kind of putting those creatures to work and so you kind of manage them and you can like literally like line up a row of like these adorable green little fox guys and make them assemble Machine guns for you, and so, like you can in the game, it's pretty open to how you interact with these creatures, and so you can literally work them into the ground, like until they faint, they pass out, and so in addition to, like, you can Eat the animals as well, and so you kind of do anything.

0:12:33 - Mikah Sargent
So you can make them work and then afterwards you can consume them.

0:12:37 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, if yes, that's correct.

0:12:40 - Mikah Sargent
Oh, okay, good, Good, no, so you don't. You don't have to, right, you can know, I think you have to make them work to get more weapons, but Consumption part can happen in a different way. Sure, yeah, and so it does hit this game, yeah.

0:12:54 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, and so this is gray area of like. You know, if you want, you could like build your pals like Fluffy beds and make them nice baths and, you know, treat them really well. But then of course it's like a video game. So there's the flip side of you know. Folks are upset because you can, you know, mistreat the creatures and to a certain point also like Incentivizes, you know, putting them to work and making them work but we should note.

0:13:22 - Mikah Sargent
I Just to clarify it is not as if, while you're playing this game somewhere in the real world, there are, for every creature that you're putting to work in this game, that there's somebody somewhere putting an actual creature to work. This is all just virtual, correct. This is just a game.

0:13:38 - Ana Diaz
It's it's completely virtual. It's not a graphic game. The characters are very cartoony and even you know you can, but you can get a butcher knife and cut up your creatures and for food, and that is also censored. So, like, even if you know you decide that like there's a specific like meat that you want, um, it is like literally blurred out in the game. So it's like a very kind of um, you know the. It's an interesting game because the cartoony, playful Aesthetics really contrast with, like, what's actually the grimmer parts of what are happening.

0:14:14 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, because we in real life Take animals and make them, you know, take a plow along and then oftentimes we take that animal and we destroy it and consume it and there's no blurring happening there. So this, at least, is a little bit more pulled back from reality. I suppose what I'm saying here is, I understand if we're contextualizing it in the sense that a game that Feels a little bit like Pokemon and has this cutesy aspect might draw in younger folks, kids, and then you have guns and you have, you know, butchering and all of that. I understand that concern, that's there, but, as you point out, you know, trying to know just how many people are truly upset about this, versus it being the loudest people and the people who have the wherewithal to have access to the platforms that they can share. This is, yeah, that's different. Um, yeah, and I forgot, did his pal world said anything about any of this?

0:15:13 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, so to that note. So, Palworld, or pocket pair, the developer of how world has stayed relatively quiet on what's happened, the Miso be, the CEO, who also wrote that history that I based the report on, did release one statement, essentially saying that people have been harassing the developers online, especially the artists, and slandering them and sending death threats to them and simply asking for folks. You know Didn't stop doing that, and it was just a very short tweet and also assured that, you know, various parts of the power production process were, you know, monitored by people and that this is, like you know, been worked on by humans who have given this approval, and that it's not, you know, because there are also AI allegations as well.

0:16:05 - Mikah Sargent
Oh, bump, bump, bum, that some of these may have been AI generated. Well, I guess last I'll ask if folks do want to try the game you mentioned. I only knew about it being on steam. You mentioned Xbox as well. Where are the places that people can go to buy it and is there an average cost for the game?

0:16:24 - Ana Diaz
Yeah, so there's two, two places that you can, you know, download the game. The first is on steam, and so you just download steam. It costs the. The base price is $30. It's on sale for 10% off right now, so it's a couple bucks cheaper than that and that would be available to download on like Windows PC. If you have a steam deck, you can play it on a steam deck, which is a portable steam device, and in addition to that you can download it. If you have an Xbox game pass subscription, you can download it on Xbox One and Xbox series s and x, xbox and steam.

0:17:07 - Mikah Sargent
I might have to talk to you after, because I didn't know that there was a way to play it on the steam deck. I have a steam deck and I would like to play it, but I saw that it just had the Windows badge and steam and so I thought that meant that I couldn't play it. So I might have to email you Because I kind of curious. Yeah, I want to thank you so much for your time today. It was a pleasure getting to chat with you about Palworld. Of course, folks can head over to polygon.com to keep up with everything you're writing about Palworld and ever and other things, but if they want to follow you online to keep up with that, where should they go to do that?

0:17:39 - Ana Diaz
I'm on TikTok and Twitter. @Pokachee. P O K A C H E E. I'm mainly active on TikTok, less Twitter these days, but you can find me there. Both at that handle wonderful.

0:17:54 - Mikah Sargent
Thanks so much for your time.

0:17:56 - Ana Diaz
Thank you

0:17:59 - Mikah Sargent
All, righty folks, up next my first story of the week, and it is a Breaking news story, or relatively breaking that in just a moment it's time for my story of the week. Just this morning, apple has put out a press release over on its newsroom page about changes to changes it's making in the European Union to iOS, to Safari and to the App Store, and it is Involved so with the changes that are coming into place. Apple is responding to the European Union's digital markets act, the DMA, and Boy oh boy, is the company kind of salty in the way that it has talked about this. But there's a lot that's happening, and so I'm not going to be able to cover everything, and you're going to hear lots about it in the coming week, probably first on twit this Sunday as well as ask the tech guys, but that's because the changes, according to Apple, include more than 600 new APIs, expanded app analytics, functionality for alternative browser engines and Options for processing app payments and distributing iOS apps outside of the App Store. Yes, sideloading in the EU. What's interesting, though, is that Apple says we're doing our best to make sure that we are keeping things safe and Private, and so they say we're introducing new safeguards that reduce, but don't eliminate, new risks the DMA poses to EU users. And so, along with kind of making these changes, I find it interesting that Apple is saying we know these changes are coming, we're still trying to make it so that you can be private and secure even if you're not using Apple's own Systems. So, to talk to kind of break this down, developers are going to be able to start testing this with the iOS 17.4 beta. These changes will come into place in March 2024, so this year in March, and that will come to the 27 EU countries. What they say is that, along with all of the, the new kinds of methods, these changes are going to create quote a less intuitive user experience, and that. I'm having trouble finding it now, but there was a great line of kind of complaining about these new changes.

But let's talk about what's happening in iOS. First and foremost, there's going to be, as I mentioned, new APIs and tools so that apps can be developed or distributed excuse me from alternative app marketplaces. So developers will be able to offer their iOS apps for download in these alternative marketplaces. Think of it as so you've got the App Store. That's the place, right now, that we all go to get our apps. Somebody else come along and make the Blap Store and you could go to the Blap Store and get your apps from the, your, your yeah, we'd still call them apps your apps from the Blap Store, and so some third party could create that Blap Store that would work with iOS. There's also going to be new frameworks and APIs so that someone could create the Blap Store itself. So not just for distributing apps from other marketplaces, but actually creating marketplaces and making sure that they can properly install on an iOS device, and this one's, I think, going to be a big one, and I'm curious to see if we end up seeing this come to the United States as well.

Alternative browser engines so we've talked before on many a show about how, on iOS, you do have the option to choose a different browser as your default browser. So you can use Safari, which is the default. By default. You can use Firefox. You can use a number of other browsers that exist on iOS and iPadOS. However, all of those browsers are behind the scenes, using WebKit, which is the Safari browser engine. It is the thing that renders. It takes a web page and it displays it based on what the code is, and so that browser engine is the same across every single app that you were using on your device. It doesn't matter if it says Firefox, if it doesn't matter if it says Chrome, it doesn't matter if it says Brave. Those are all actually using WebKit in the background. In the EU, however, there will be the ability for browser apps to create their own and use their own browser engines, so you would eventually see Chromium as an option on your iOS device, on your iPad device, and then there's also something called the interoperability request form, and basically developers will need to do this to request interoperability with the iPhone, with the iOS hardware, whatever they're using, and different software features.

Now there are some safeguards that Apple has said that it is putting in place, and it starts with notarization. So, even though the app doesn't have to go through app store review existing outside of the app store, it still needs to have a notarization. What this does, according to Apple, it's a baseline review that applies to all apps, regardless of the distribution channel, and it's focused on platform integrity and protecting users. Essentially, what happens is a series of automated checks and then also, in some cases, human review will come into play that will check if the app is secretly some sort of malware or if it's doing some other means of bad stuff. So an app will be notarized even if it hasn't gone through app store review and isn't available for sale within the app store but instead is in the BlapStore.

As we talked about earlier, there are also something called app installation sheets. These app installation sheets will take information from that notarization process and give you information about what the app is. So think of it like when you go into the app store and you look at a listing. This will have information about what the app can do, who the developer is, screenshots. It's basically like an app store listing, but given that it's outside of the app store, that's where it will be. Marketplace developers will need to have authorization. So the person who makes the BlapStore will need to go to Apple to get authorization in order to offer the BlapStore as a marketplace for apps.

And then some special malware protections. I think this is good. According to Apple, it says these additional malware protections will prevent iOS apps from launching if they're found to contain malware after being installed to a user's device. So imagine you go to the BlapStore and there's an app called Make Me Money Now and the app claims to be able to make you six bitcoins in three months. All you have to do is open the app and play a game and you download Make Me Money Now from the BlapStore, and then iOS scans the app, finds malware within the app that obviously is trying to gain access to the system and do bad things to your system, then iOS can actually prevent you from being able to tap on that app Make Me Money Now, open it up and therefore launch the malware to do what it does. So Apple does say, though these protections are putting in place they're great, they're going to be awesome, but of course, they're not going to completely keep you safe and secure, and that there are still privacy and security risks at play. They say Apple has less ability to address risks, including apps that contain scams, fraud and abuse, that expose users to illicit, objectionable or harmful content.

And then also I thought this was kind of funny the thing that they can say about using alternative browser engines is that if you're not using Apple's webkit, then it could affect system performance and battery life. Those of us who've ever used Chrome are very familiar with the impact that that browser engine can have on your battery life, so that's their warning. Hey, if you want to use Chromium, be my guest, but that all day battery life we promised for that 15 Pro Max. It might not be the case anymore if you're using that browser, as your choice Now changes to Safari Safari itself when you first launch the app. After these changes go into play, when you first launch Safari, a screen will pop up and you will be given the option to choose what default browser you want. Now, as I noted before, you can already select a different default browser on iOS, but it's not presented there in Safari as a pop-up. That's the change. Basically, the EU's DMA requires that it be more active, not so much of a sort of opt-in, opt-out thing that hides behind the screen, but instead is something that pops up automatically and is there for you to choose.

Now, this is what Apple has to say about this Quote. This change is a result of the DMA's requirements and means that EU users will be confronted with a list of default browsers before they have the opportunity to understand the options available to them. The screen also interrupts EU users experience the first time they open Safari, intending to navigate to a web page. So they're saying there or I should say it, apple is saying there that not only will you not have the opportunity to see if Safari is the browser you want to use, because you're just going to be immediately presented with that choice and have to make that choice right then, and maybe if we let users try Safari and try Chrome and try Brave on their iOS device and then select, that would make a difference, but because it's being presented to you right there on the screen, you have to make the choice in the moment the first time you try to go to the web. And then the second complaint there is look, they opened up Safari because they were trying to go to a website, but instead of being able to go to a website, this annoying pop-up is right here and making them do something before they're able to get to that website. These are all the little kind of complaints that they are listing out that are in direct response to the DMA's requirements.

Now, when it comes to changes to the app store, there are quite a few, and so I'm going to do my best to summarize these and get through them here. There are new options for using payment service providers, so a developer app could use, for example, paypal or another payment service provider within the app, as opposed to everything being app store purchases, in-app purchases. There are options for processing payments with a link so you could tap on the link that would take you to a web page that would then let you make the purchase. And then there are some other things that I'm not going to get into because they're kind of more developer focused. But along with that there will be some protections in place, including app store product page labels, so when an app they're downloading uses an alternative payment processing platform, it will kind of show you a page that explains that. Disclosure sheets that will also talk about the fact that you're not working with Apple. So you won't be getting your refund from Apple. You'll have to get it from that developer. Specifically. New app review processes, of course, that will help to make sure that developers are accurately communicating information about those transactions.

And then some data portability options for EU users. There's also going to be a change to payment options in the EU where when you're using Apple's tap to pay, which we know as Apple Pay, when we tap on that in the EU, they're opening up that NFC communication so that you could set a third party as your payment platform of choice. So, as an example and this is, I actually want to make one up instead of using an actual payment platform. So Cube is your payment platform that you use. You use Cube Pay and you could go into the settings, choose Cube Pay and then, when you tap to pay for something, if Cube Pay supports it, then you would be making the payment via Cube Pay instead of Apple Pay. Of course, apple has its complaints about that as well concerns about security and privacy, et cetera, et cetera. So there's a lot that we'll have to be getting into over time as we understand the changes here. I don't know how much, if any, of this is going to make its way to the United States. I've asked my pal, rosemary Orchard, who, as you know, lives in the UK, if she thinks she will be seeing any of this in the UK, given its separation from the EU, or if the UK on its own can have an impact at the level that the EU is able to. So there's a lot to understand about this and we here at TWIT are going to continue to try to understand this and understand its impact on those of you who live in the EU, in particular that watch these shows, and then the impact that it might have on the rest of the world.

All right, before we come back with the second interview of the show, I do want to take a brief moment to remind you to head to twittv slash survey 24. There you'll be able to take the survey. That is a very simple thing to do. It won't take you very long at all. Our annual survey is well underway. We've got lots of responses from folks who have written in and we'd love to hear from you. Join those other wonderful TWIT users who have submitted their surveys, so that we know what you like, who you are, what shows you watch or listen to and everything in between. It is your chance to provide feedback. Twittv slash survey 24. The last day to take the survey is January 31st, so please hop on it. It helps us understand again who you are and the experience that you have as a TWIT listener. It only takes a few minutes. One more time twittv slash survey 24.

All right, we are back from the break, and that means it is time for my next guest joining us to talk about a brand new, ultra cool laptop is Sean Hollister of the Verge. Welcome, sean. Hi, thank you for having me. Yeah, pleasure to have you on the show. So we got a lot of nerds who listen to the show and are probably familiar with framework. But for those out there who are listening, who are not familiar, tell us about the Framework Laptop as a concept in general and then tell us a little bit about the Framework Laptop 16.

0:33:52 - Sean Hollister
Yeah, so for a very long time desktop computers not laptop computers, but desktops have allowed you to add all kinds of custom parts and swap them out, and you can get a new GPU and a new CPU, memory and solid state storage and all those various things. But laptops have been much more limited. If you've been lucky you'd be able to swap out the memory and storage, but almost anything else has been a toss up and especially wondering whether you can get those parts at all. Framework decided it was going to build laptops where every single part of the computer is modular Not just those memory modules, but the battery, the screen, the bezel around the screen. And in one of their latest designs they allowed you to I think for the first time in a laptop ever swap out the entire Intel main board from your like your three year old laptop for an AMD one with a modern chip, modern connectivity and everything on it. So the idea is you buy a laptop from them and you have a future proof laptop, a laptop that you could just put the new parts in, like you put the parts into your desktop PC, and so now they've got the Framework Laptop 16. It's their second platform. First one was 13.5 inches. This one is 16 inches. And not only does it have all those repairable modular parts on the inside of the laptop, it has gaming capabilities too.

You can replace the GPU on this machine and you can do it in two minutes. No replacing thermal paste, no soldering, nothing like that. This isn't their claim that you can do it in two minutes. By the way, I've done it in two minutes. I timed myself. There's a video inside my review here where you can watch me do it in two minutes.

Six screws, and two of those screws retain the GPU in laptop. The other four attach something called an interposer which transfers all the electricity, the PCI signals for data, all of that between the GPU and the main machine. It also has something, another thing we've never seen before on a laptop the input modules, the entire keyboard deck atop the laptop. The keyboard, the touch pad, the spacers every piece of that is removable. And I am literally by the way, I'm literally talking to you from the Framework Laptop 16 right now, not its webcam, I've got a better webcam plug in, but this is the touch pad for the machine that I literally pulled off, the laptop in front of me Right now. Here's one of the spacers I am I'm gonna rip off. Let me rip off the keyboard too.

0:36:20 - Mikah Sargent
Oh my goodness, yank, he's disassembling it right in front of us. This is the keyboard in the machine. That is wild, okay.

0:36:27 - Sean Hollister
Wow, here in fact, let me one moment, if you'll give me the liberty, really quickly. So this is my camera here, and just to show you that I'm not. This is in bogus. This is the machine that I just pulled this keyboard off of, let me put it back in there. And here's the touch pad.

0:36:45 - Mikah Sargent
And this is why it's on.

0:36:46 - Ana Diaz
You can do cool things like this, so while it's on, it's hot swappable.

0:36:50 - Sean Hollister
So the numpad on the right here if you wanna have a numpad on a laptop, great, and if you don't, you could pull that off and move the keyboard back to the center and have a center aligned keyboard instead and then and maybe put a couple of interesting spacers next to it. So here on the right, here is an LED matrix module. Serve for the shaky camera.

0:37:08 - Mikah Sargent
Just because.

0:37:10 - Sean Hollister
Just because have yourself some LEDs. And then on the left here, why don't we get this beautiful color shift spacer?

0:37:17 - Ana Diaz
No, I'll put that in over on the left here Is it heat.

0:37:20 - Sean Hollister
And so we'll put our metal spacers back on top. We'll drop our touch pad back on there. Excuse me, do I have it backwards? Okay, there we go, and it just slides into these little connectors and hits some Pogo pins. I think the LED module started to light up there, okay.

0:37:34 - Ana Diaz
Wow.

0:37:35 - Sean Hollister
There we go. I got a little bit of LEDs going there, Literally in front of you right now, and so all you gotta do is you click these two little levers on each side If you wanna pull these modules out of your PC. Well, it's running, and then that locks it in place. Get my camera back to somewhere near my face. Sorry about that.

0:37:50 - Mikah Sargent
No, that's not no, no, sorry, that was fantastic to see and that's the thing you did, that while the thing was running. I mean, that's incredible. So now this makes me have to ask what, ultimately, are you? I mean cause I can try and yank on this keyboard here on this MacBook Air and it nothing's. I can't put LED, but I do have this lovely light, thin, fast running device that has no fans in it. What am I? What is a trade-off that you get when you've got something that's so swappable and replaceable and repa Well, I won't even say repairable, cause I don't think that's necessarily a trade-off. So let's stick with that customization stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:38:34 - Sean Hollister
Absolutely so. That is basically what my whole review on the Verge is about, and there's two sets of trade-offs, one set that will let me rephrase. There is the potential trade-off of maybe this doesn't work as well as you would want, period Maybe there is some fundamental hardware or software issues that they haven't worked out yet. Maybe they shipped this thing a little bit too early before it was done, and so there's a bit of. There's a lot to get in there there. But my biggest problem with the machine is it froze a number of times while I was using it, on average once per day, due to a number of weird device issues. I don't know what all the issues are, but one of them that they did hunt down and is fixed to the best of my knowledge the touchpad, that hot swappable touchpad that I pulled off. Sometimes when I was swiping around the touchpad, my computer would blue screen freeze, have to do a hard reset. Typically, computers that chip to people don't do blue screens over something that simple. Right, that's very bad. It's very, very bad. They issued a new bias that I believe has fixed that issue. I've had other freeze issues with it. It's not my only one, but that was the biggest issue. They seem to have fixed that issue in a bias. There are a couple other freezes that I hope they're also fixing Okay.

So first question is can you make a modular laptop that is stable? I, jerry is still out on that. I hope they can. The second question is what are you giving up in terms of how much money you're spending for this laptop and the kind of performance you get out of it? Well, I can tell you right now that this laptop has a very strong mobile CPU in it. It's fast, it's efficient.

I got a decent amount of battery life for a 16-inch gaming machine. I did not get a great amount of battery life for a 16-inch ultra-light laptop though. So right away you're looking at okay, I'm getting gaming machine-like battery out of it, not work machine all day long battery life out of it. I could stretch to six hours and 40 minutes if I'd set everything to minimum Power saving modes, limiting the speed of the processor, screen brightness low, all that kind of stuff. Six hours and 40 minutes not too bad. My normal work using it like a normal machine, average more like five and a half hours. Okay, battery life, then there is okay. So yes, I've agreed.

I'm opting into the gaming machine. I want the GP on be able to swap that in and out and have all this gaming experience on it. It plays games well, but not as well as other gaming laptops for around this price. So you gotta think to yourself do am I willing to spend more money for a laptop that could be future-proof If they have nailed this idea, if they have nailed this idea that could be future-proof, that I could put another GPU in two years down there on a faster one and keep up with the times and on and on years from now.

How many years is this? Am I gonna be able to use most literally the same components but add that one new piece in, just like I would with my desktop PC? That makes all the difference. And now I feel like I'm keeping up with the Joneses and playing all the latest games without having to buy a whole new laptop at that point. And that sounds wonderful and I would buy into that a lot easier if they had promised to me that they would actually put out another GPU for this laptop.

They have not said firmly we will ship another graphics card for this machine. They've said we've engineered this whole computer to do that. They've said our company is dependent on the success of our modularity here. It is their whole stick. I mean, it is all they do, and they are the only company that has ever done it. Well, before Alienware announced a laptop that you could swap the GPU out of, like I don't wanna say three years ago maybe, but Alienware owned by Dell, by the way did not follow through on those promises in any meaningful way. They faced down a lawsuit because of it.

Intel promised modular mini desktop computers for many years. They built modules that looked very promising, but they did not come out with future upgrade modules for those PCs. So you bought the thing thinking maybe two years from now I'll be able to swap a new CPU in it. And when, two years later you found out that not so much. And then they decided to axe that business. And when Asus bought that business from them, asus said now we're doing a bunch of these little tiny computers. We're not gonna do those modules, sorry.

See framework has framework's done it. Maybe they can do it again. I'd love them to make this work.

0:43:41 - Mikah Sargent
And this is, I guess, my other question here is investing in something like this with the promise that you can continue to improve it over time and that it's gonna last a long time, when it's a company that has the history that Dell, for example, has, or ASUS to some extent HP, if those companies were offering this and you'd know that if, 10 years down the line, you wanted to go to their special online store and buy new parts, that that could happen.

But in a world where we see lots of companies start and do well for a while and then disappear, how does that sort of factor into the equation of whether it's worth investing in this? Because it does seem like a large part of this is there's forgiveness for the BIOS error and the trackpad not doing exactly what you expected to, because you know that the company iterates regularly and that one component can be replaced. That's part of the promise. But do you have to factor in the idea that framework might not be there someday, more so than you would if it was a big company that's had as much history as it's had?

0:45:05 - Sean Hollister
Yeah, on balance, I think that's a great question and on balance I would say that I would trust a Dell a lot less to follow through because I know that the incentives aren't aligned properly for them to follow through and because companies like that have lied in the past. There would not be strong repercussions for a Dell, for an HP, for an ASUS, if they abandon their concept a year after they make people buy it. There would be very strong repercussions for framework if they do not follow through. It would be the end of their company if they do not follow through more than once on something like this. So far they've had a great track record. There's been a few wrinkles over the years, but so far they've had a pretty good track record and this would be their first big misstep, I would say, if they do not follow through on it. But it would alienate a lot of people. Now the other question though, like you said, the other thing tied in with that is is it possible that framework could just go under, either before they fulfill the promise or as a result of not fulfilling the promise quickly enough? You know my review. Are enough people reading my review and canceling their pre-orders that this is going to materially impact the company? I hope not, because I believe in what they're doing. I don't wanna see them go under Not that I think they would. I think they would probably get snapped up by another computer company.

Since framework has came out with its original 13.5 inch laptop and successfully iterated on it for three and a half generations four, if you wanna count you know the fact that they also did Intel and AMD, this latest generation.

During that time several other computer companies, most prominently Lenovo, has come forward and said oh yeah, we could do that too. We love this idea of modular, you know, repairable computers. The industry in general, I think, has seen that right to repair is taking off in parts of Europe. Consumers have shown a preference for devices that are more repairable and framework is still, I believe, the only computer company where you can go to a store, a consumer storefront, and buy any piece of the machine, any piece, and fix that part of your computer if it breaks, or upgrade it potentially down the road. So I think they would probably get snapped up in a heartbeat by another computer company if they show weakness. And then the conversation would be do we trust another computer company to follow through? Or are they just buying one of their competitors? I don't know. I hope we aren't gonna cross the bridge here.

0:47:54 - Mikah Sargent
Yeah, I hope so too, and I guess my last question here is would you recommend this device to the? There are kind of typical use cases that you would come across a student who's about to go to university, or someone who's starting up a new job, or someone whose laptop that they had before is starting to die and they're looking for a new one or does this still exist in a space of a sort of specialty space and it's for the tinkerer have? Has framework as a concept and as a product been able to break into that general consumer, or do you think they even, do you think it even wants to do that? Is it always going to be kind of in this area of those folks who wear badges that say right to repair and who find it super cool the thing you just did where you can swap out all these pieces, or is there some way that they can find a balance?

0:48:58 - Sean Hollister
for the laptop 16, I mean, the laptop 16 is always going to be a specialist niche product, not because just of right to repair, but because it's a work machine that's trying to double as a gaming machine, that's trying to double as a DJ console that lets you swap in all these not just down to earth useful parts but also all of these flashy high tech let's get our frame rates, let's get our LEDs lit up kind of items in it.

So I think anybody who's looking at a framework 16 is going to be the kind of person who's really a gadget enthusiast or really a right to repair nerd or both. But that's it. They've got a 13.5 inch laptop. We really liked their AMD version of that 13.5 inch laptop and so anybody who likes the idea of right to repair and wants to have some of that modularity and upgradeability at a different price with a proven platform at this point and after three years this platform's been tested and upgraded and modularized, that has worked out some of the kinks and has some of the battery life it's right there waiting for you.

0:50:17 - Mikah Sargent
Nice, sean Hollister, I want to thank you so much for your time today, for joining us here to talk about the Framework Laptop 16. Of course, we encourage everyone to head down to the show notes, find the link to your review, and then also, I know you did an AMA about this as well, so there's lots that you've talked about with the Framework Laptop 16. If folks want to follow along with you and keep up with what you're doing, where's a good place for them to do that?

0:50:41 - Sean Hollister
Oh yeah, I would just go straight to my author profile on the verge not doing too much social media these days, but definitely click on that AMA link if you want some very nerdy details about this laptop. It's right there in the first paragraph of the review. Click that link and you'll get. How much wattage does this LED lit up LED panel draw and things like that? Awesome awesome.

0:51:03 - Mikah Sargent
Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great.

Alrighty folks, I have another great story of the week coming up next, but before we get there, I do want to tell you. If you are listening and you have a product or a service that you think would be a great fit for our listeners, you might consider advertising with us. Yes, you have an opportunity to partner with us at Twitter. We are a fantastic source for news and reviews and all of the info that those folks out there who are into tech need to know, and, frankly, I work closely with the continuity team here at Twitter. I get to see their work almost every day, and their job, along with the sales team, is to provide the gold standard of podcast advertising, and we've got many a long-term partner who would agree with that. And only do we offer video and audio formats. We've got that highly dedicated team that's there to support you every step of the way to make sure that your campaign here at Twitter is successful. So join our roster of trusted partners today and get benefits that are unique to Twitter embedded, unique host read ads. Guaranteed over delivery on downloads. Presence on our sponsor page, show episode pages, the RSS feed for the episode descriptions and lots of other perks and, frankly, you won't find anywhere else. I was just talking with the CEO, lisa, a couple of days ago and she was saying that it's wild whenever she talks to clients and they are so blown away by what we offer. We are the gold standard I might as well call it the platinum standard when it comes to having advertisers here on Twitter. So I love your brand. Make an impact. Reach out to advertise at twittv today to get started. That's advertise at twittv and I look forward to getting to talk about your product or your service. So much fun. Thank you, advertise at twittv.

All right back from the break and I came across an interesting story In New York. There has been the announcement of a new public health hazard in New York City. On Wednesday, the company designated can you guess what that new public health hazard might be? It's social media. Social media is the new public health hazard in New York City. The New York City Health Commissioner, ashwin Vassant, issued the Health Commissioner advisory designating social media as a public health crisis in the city. Now, of course, we know that the US Surgeon General that's kind of in charge of that on the federal level typically issues things like tobacco guns as public health hazards, but social media was the choice in New York City. This is kind of an interesting.

What I'm saying is I'm not surprised this has happened, because we have seen, over the course of the previous year, lots of focus on social media and its impact on kids in general, but especially on mental health, and while on the face of it this may seem like a silly thing, where you have what amounts to performance, it's a performance. It's performative to say that it's a public health crisis. It's this, it's that the other. What is important to understand is what takes place within a bureaucracy and what rules have to be followed within a bureaucracy and how funds can be used within a bureaucracy, and oftentimes, in order for funds to be used and people to be directed and studies to be done, you have to do these things that, on the face, look performative. So if the city's health commissioner comes forward and says this is a public health crisis, then resources can be used to address the public health crisis, and so I wouldn't be surprised if we see other places following suit to pay more attention to and understand the impact that social media has on the mental health of young people. There was the Surgeon General's warning. We talked about it on this very show last year I believe it was with Heather Kelly of the Washington Post, and we discussed the impact that the Surgeon General said that different social media networks had on kids, and the same applies here. On that same day, according to the Washington Post, the New York City Health Commissioner outlined what they say is the quote deteriorating state of youth mental health in New York City and then, as I mentioned, guidance was provided implementing tech-free times, tech-free places, monitoring emotions during youth, sharing concerns related to social media and mental health with adults.

According to a recent Pew Research study, from 2022, up to 95% of US teens use some form of social media, and many young people using social media have experienced some level of impact, because the unprecedented as it's been called mental health crisis is in some ways, linked to social media. So the fact is, we don't know still how much of an impact each kind of social media is having on kids and teens and young folks, and so, in order to understand that, it needs to be studied, it needs to be broken down, and companies need to be able to provide data, provide information so that everybody can group this together and figure out what the actual impact is. So I think over the course of this year we will continue to see these studies coming out that are specifically focused on social media's impact on kids. We saw that more directly with Instagram, more focused study with Instagram and what was it called at the time? The Facebook papers, I believe and now with even more algorithmic content out there. We're going to continue to see these studies taking place and I wouldn't be surprised if, fairly soon, we start to see other cities following suit in designating it a public health hazard Again, especially after the Surgeon General provided that warning in the first place. But yeah, you can learn more about this at the Washington Post. You can also read the advisory directly from New York City's public health advisor and be able to kind of understand where New York City is coming from in terms of this declaration. So that is my final story of the week, a quick little one about New York City being the first to declare social media public health hazard and, more importantly, to understand that it's not just waving a hand and making a declaration, but what it does as the effect of making this decision.

Folks Tech News Weekly publishes every Thursday at twitstvtnw. That's where you can go to subscribe to the show in audio video formats. I do want to mention that next week I will be joined by my next regular guest host on Tech News Weekly. Abraah Alhiti of CNET is going to be joining me every first Thursday of the month to bring her story of the week. I'll bring a story of the week. We'll talk about them, just as I did with Amanda Silverling of Tech Crunch Very, very excited about that, and so you will be able to see her join me next week.

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1:02:42 - Rod Pyle
Hey, I'm Rod Pyle, Editor-in-Chief of Ad Astra Magazine, and each week I joined with my co-host to bring you, This Week in Space, the latest and greatest news from the final frontier. We talked to NASA, chief Space Scientist, engineers, educators and artists and sometimes we just shoot the breeze over what's hot and what's not in space books and TV and we do it all for you, our fellow true believers. So, whether you're an armchair adventurer or waiting for your turn to grab a slot in Elon's Mars rocket, join us on this week in space to be part of the greatest adventure of all time.