Intelligent Machines 816 transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Our guest this week, harper Reed. Longtime coder, he was CTO for the Obama campaign in 2012. He has started and sold companies to the biggest and the best, but now he's all into AI coding. We're getting an insight into how AI can help everyone write code. Next, on Intelligent Machines Podcasts you love. From people you trust.

This is TWIT. This is Intelligent Machines, episode 816, recorded Wednesday, april 23rd 2025. Flappy Jeff, it's time for Intelligent Machines. The show we cover the latest in, well, intelligent machines, whether it's AI in your computer or an IoT device that seems to be thinking, or a robot that's making your bed right now. Joining me, as always for Intelligent Machines, the wonderful Paris Martineau. Hello Paris.

0:01:05 - Paris Martineau
Hello Leo, uh, joining me. As always for intelligent machines.

0:01:07 - Leo Laporte
The wonderful paris martineau. Hello paris.

0:01:08 - Paris Martineau
Hello leo with her broken lava lamp, her, her latest find on the streets of new york listen, you know, sometimes you walk by a lava lamp sitting on a stoop and you're like I must have this did they put a sign that said free, or were they uh? Oh yeah, no, it's a free. It's a table, uh, that a neighbor has had out for years, where I love, where they and I assume, other people put free things. Usually it's largely junk, but today there was a lava lamp missing a top and now it is mine.

0:01:36 - Leo Laporte
And thanks to our wonderful audience, we have a top which is a cowboy hat, that's true, we'll see, come on. It actually is really good looking. I think that's it. Yeah, that's it actually is really good looking. I think that's it. Yeah, that's it, that's definitely it.

I mean someone in the chat has told me that I should perhaps reconsider this whenever I get heating things, as it might get hot enough to melt, but no you know there's an insight, though take the hat off because, look, it's like a little bottle cap on the top like a soda. Yeah, that's hysterical who knew like who knew? Because you gotta you gotta fill it up with you gotta fill it up with stuff there's ooze and uh liquid.

0:02:12 - Paris Martineau
Don't drink the liquid, though I mean I could if I'm looking for, if I'm, if I'm jonesing for a drink and there's nothing else, I could just crack it and take a big sip, they say the hat will melt.

0:02:23 - Leo Laporte
so don't. Yeah, we're going to have to take that.

0:02:25 - Paris Martineau
You're saying my $3 cat-sized cowboy hat might not be made of quality material.

0:02:34 - Leo Laporte
That there in laughing away is Jeff Jarvis. He is the Professor Emeritus of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York, at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York, now at Montclair State University in New Jersey and also SUNY Stony Brook. And of course, the author of many books, including the Web. We Weave his latest and the Gutenberg Parenthesis now in paperback.

We pivoted this show in case you're just tuning in. We thought this week in Google wasn't giving us enough good stuff to talk about. Let's talk about ai, and that's been a wonderful opportunity for us to interview some of the people who are working in ai in interesting ways. I want to introduce an old friend, harper reed. Uh, he's a technologist, entrepreneur and hacker.

0:03:21 - Harper Reed
Hello, harper hello, hello, happy to be back it's great to have you.

0:03:26 - Leo Laporte
I've known Harper for ages. I think we first met in Canada, actually when I was doing a show up there. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, you may know the name. He was the CTO of the Obama campaign in 2012. He sold his e-commerce startup to PayPal. Well, was it braintree first, and then braintree sold to paypal, or?

0:03:48 - Harper Reed
oh, we were after braintree, sold to paypal, so we sold, we sold to paypal and then lived inside a brain tree which is a good place to live, was the mafia all gone by the time you got there yes, thankfully

0:04:01 - Leo Laporte
this was years. This wasn't so long ago. This is the long gone yeah yeah, uh, harper, what are you doing these days? It looks like a little code workshop.

0:04:09 - Harper Reed
You got going on up there well, I, I, uh, I recently, we recently founded a new company, raised a little bit of money and we're building um what I like to kind of describe as uh, super clippy or mega clippy, um, the, the, the ai based ai based we.

We are building, um, you know, agents that are personified and a little bit unhinged, and we'll do some work for you and help you out and, uh, live on your computer and maybe talk shit, we don't know yet that's interesting that that see a lot of people think that that is a kind of bad use of ai.

0:04:41 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, but it's interesting. But I, you know I trust your judgment. I mean I don't think you would waste your time on something that was a bad use of AI. But I trust your judgment. I mean I don't think you would waste your time on something that was a bad use of AI.

0:04:51 - Harper Reed
I don't know if we know what the right uses of AI are.

I just read a really great blog post. I just found this out of kind of nowhere from Hacker News, which is called the AI Horseless Carriages, which is just about how bad the Gmail AI is, and I think there's a real opportunity for people to, instead of taking AI and shoehorning it into a service that already exists or a product that already exists, is to think what should this product look like with these new automations? And the author has this perfect quotation. Let me see if I can quickly find it where where he was like it's a word, they were like I don't know their, their, their, their gender, but it's a world where where we don't, where I don't have to spend time doing Monday work because everything agents do it for me.

Like this idea of like why have the agents? Why have the computers? Like, I guess I totally messed up the quote. I just no idea what it is. Anyway, read it, it's great.

0:05:51 - Leo Laporte
I am. I have it right here. We'll put a link in the show notes. It's Pete Kuhman's, K-O-O-M-E-N's blog AI Horseless Carriages. Yeah, we're in that early stage, aren't we, when we don't know what it's going to be. You came to my attention because, of course, I follow you in many different places, but I saw your blog post about using AI to code.

0:06:18 - Harper Reed
Now, you're not a vibe coder, are you? I mean, I've been a vibe coder since I was about five years old and I learned basic. Man, I definitely am. I'm the type of guy where I'm like man. That was a stressful day at work. Let me pull up some Python to relax. Coding has been about vibe since I was a child, but I do think there is both a positive aspect to the kind of quote unquote vibe coding that we talk about today and some negative aspects. But I do think that the concept really brings up some complicated points of view. One of them is just simply that maybe code quality doesn't matter as much as it used to, which is a very bizarre point of view for someone who has made their career as having good code quality.

0:07:00 - Jeff Jarvis
That's kind of the import of AI entirely is nothing needs to be perfect anymore?

0:07:06 - Harper Reed
Well, it's even more. I stumbled across this kind of nuance that I was acting upon, which was I would never have AI write a blog post, but I have no issue with AI writing my code and I want to be very careful in my language that I'm putting out to the world, but I'm not careful in the code of the apps that I'm putting out in the world and kind of what does that mean? And I think it's because with the code, I'm able to set up testing infrastructure, verification tools, et cetera, to test, to make sure that it works and to make sure that it's quality, and I can scan it and do analysis. And there's all these tools that have been around for dozens of years, 20s of years, that will solve that problem. Whereas writing all the AI writing seems to sound a little bit the same to me, much like all the images seem to look the same and there's obviously people who are very good at prompting these things.

So it sounds much better. But I've just found that when I read, if I'm like I'm going to do a blog post about AI and I'm going to use AI to write it, I'm like this doesn't sound like me. First of all, it has capitals and it's misspelled or it's spelled correctly and it uses real grammar.

0:08:15 - Leo Laporte
Punctuation and things. Punctuation, you know, I mean it's like God hey don't come for the M-dash.

0:08:23 - Paris Martineau
I'm an M-dash machine man.

0:08:24 - Leo Laporte
I put.

0:08:24 - Harper Reed
M-dashes between every word.

0:08:33 - Paris Martineau
We all agree that that's a bad test of AI. I use M-dashes so often. I often have to rewrite sentences because I'm like there's a three M-dashes like sentences right after each other. I got to throw a parenthetical in there.

0:08:39 - Leo Laporte
I got to put a semicolon in there somewhere. So you write in fact in your most recent blog post at harperblog I find that I want my voice to be heard and not normalized, whereas my code needs to be normalized. In this context, what do you mean normalized?

0:08:56 - Harper Reed
Well, I think, if you're working with a giant team of engineers, the goal is to have a consistent quality output. You don't want someone who is really good and someone who's really bad. You want to like normalize that much, or like a compression algorithm, so to speak.

0:09:09 - Leo Laporte
You want to take this yeah, sometimes that 10% coder is not the ideal person on your team because he's so far ahead of everybody else. Nobody understands what the code's doing and he can document it, but that doesn doesn't mean that it's a different level. Yeah, that makes sense.

0:09:24 - Harper Reed
I think it's such an interesting problem because we all think about that. We want to find the 10x person or we want to find the person that's going to focus on this 100%, and what I've noticed is oftentimes they're just not great to work with. But there's a thing is I remember very specifically on the Obama campaign. There were a few things we had to do that required that person, and so I think those people end up being much more mercenary than they actually want to be because they're just such a individual worker that they're not working with a team.

With that said, working with a team that's really running everyone will make everyone go faster, but only if you can achieve that consistency, whereas writing for me is very much about my individual expression. Like I would rather tweet stupid than have an ai tweet something that's very consistent. Like I don't think the consistency in my personal expression is really what I'm looking for, other than I want to wear black every day, but that's but. That's a simple.

0:10:23 - Leo Laporte
That's simple and I don't have ai doing it makes sense, because when you're coding, what you're doing is you're you're kind of translating human requests into something and the machine will understand. Well, what better to do that than a machine, right? I mean I can understand machines should be able to code. It's their language it's.

0:10:40 - Harper Reed
I think that's true, but I actually think it's much more confusing because we're not I think that's actually how it used to be is we used to tell the machine in its language how to do it, which is like a Python to.

0:10:53 - Leo Laporte
Assembly language or something.

0:10:54 - Harper Reed
Yeah, eventually, or whatever. Or you write Rust or Go, and it compiles to a binary, whatever all that stuff. What's happening now is we have this layer in between it, that is the language model, which is like taking English. That's weird, like. It's weird. Like we were doing this thing earlier on and one of the people I work with was yelling at the computer no, no, no, no, no, don't go to Twitter. Like we're yelling. We're like what are you doing? Computer come on Like I'm walking here.

Like it's like this funny thing of like, why is it doing this?

And you really are like why would you do that? Like we talk all the time about like yeah, I tried to get it to do this and it wouldn't do it. It's like we're talking about a teenager. But it is like that Because if you think about you look at the good prompting guides they have this funny thing. It's like talking to a 12-year-old about taking responsibility for homework or solving a problem. You're like, well, let's make a plan, think step by step, take a deep breath. All these things when you add them to the prompt, make the prompts better. And it really cracks me up that we're at that point in computing and I would never have predicted this. In all my years as a Java programmer and a CTO and all that shit, I would never have predicted that I would be training my computer, coercing the machine into cooperating.

It's like a really angry, unfed 12-year-old who's just like I don't want to do my homework and you're like okay, bro, okay.

0:12:14 - Jeff Jarvis
So what would you advise 12-year-old Harper given the current reality?

0:12:19 - Harper Reed
Probably move out of the US. Well, there's that Not the current current reality. Maybe learn how to shoot a gun. I don't know.

0:12:26 - Leo Laporte
We're talking about the coding reality.

0:12:29 - Harper Reed
The AI reality.

I think that's actually a really complicated problem, because what I'm seeing is I'm seeing a lot of folks who are in engineering management, like so, people who are like me in my 40s, had a career programming, and the people we're potentially hiring are cutting their teeth on this stuff.

This is where they're learning and those two things is I wouldn't say it's so far as a Cuny and paradigm shift, but it's close to that kind of idea where we're using language that is not compatible and not collaborative with one another. So when I say, yeah, just go ahead and code that up, first thing they might do is go to Chatshub, et, go to Claude, start interacting with it, start doing some planning, whereas if you told someone who had been programming for 30 years, 20 years, 10 years or whatever, that's not the first thing they do. I'm not mad about that. I think it's really hard, but for those of us who were around in the early 2000s and the late 90s, I think this is going to start to sound very comfortable and horrifying, which is, I think we're back to waterfall.

0:13:33 - Leo Laporte
Waterfall is what Agile replaced. How would you describe it? You start at the beginning and you get to the end and it's kind of a waterfall of code.

0:13:46 - Harper Reed
Well, it's a funny thing right, because I remember very clearly I got a job in 2001 as a Java programmer. I worked with this great team that was at Tata Infotech. At the time We'd taken the project from IBM Global Services these are all dinosaurs from the past, right. And I had this team. I was the only engineer in the US. I had a team of like four or five people around Chicago. We were all in our 20s. We all went to bars and all that stuff and had a lot of fun and it was great.

But when we weren't doing that, we were coding this app and so we had a guy named Vinay who would build the spec. He was the spec guy. He knew everything about the product. He talked to all the business owners. He talked to all the stakeholders, meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting, to get the spec. And then after like six months he would be like the spec's done and it was like this big deal, yeah, like we did it, everyone let's have a party the spec's done.

And so you'd have the spec and it'd be like thousands of pages not really probably hundreds of pages and we'd all look through it and we'd make comments and like the spec's done. So then he'd pass it like over this kind of firewall to the engineers where we had no, we just had to do what was said in the spec. There was no like choice. It was like oh, this is what you have to do, you have to achieve this thing, and then, once you were done, you know, eight months later you'd be like this isn't what we wanted at all, it's a game of telephone.

0:14:58 - Jeff Jarvis
It's a game of telephone.

0:15:07 - Harper Reed
But that process and this is the thing that I'm really reflecting on right now is to do well with LLM, codegen and to really work well in this space. You have to think about what the spec is For such a long time and so carefully and so strategically. You spend a lot of time working on requirements, trying to define what are you trying to build, unlike in 2001,. It takes 15 minutes, right, like it's not, like this is a long time. And then you pop it over to like you know Clod, or I use Clod code, for instance, clod code. You just dump it in there. You're like yo, clod code, get this done for me, you know.

And it's just like does its little magic and says some weird puns. And then it's like I'm done and you're like then you check it and you're like the other same result. That's not what I wanted at all. And then you just go back and do it, and so it's the same process in many ways. I wish I was still working with Vinay. It was really fun to work with Vinay. He would be great at this. But it was like this thing of like defining that spec, moving forward, um, building and building and building, and then going back and make sure it matches the spec, and so on and so forth.

0:16:08 - Leo Laporte
It's iterative, but the iterations are much faster now and a lot.

0:16:13 - Harper Reed
I think so and I think, if you're very successful, most people I've talked to that are doing well with this seem to be adding a lot more context, a lot more writing to their product to their, to their, just to everything.

So you'll have a doc in your product that's might just be like features for today, and you just go through and define all of these features for today in like very great detail and then the LLM will go through and, because it has so much context, it can actually successfully do that. I think one of the missteps with people who are just starting out is they don't add enough context. And so, like I remember, when I started out, it was just like code. You know, you're just shouting at the computer. You're like I can shout at the computer, this is great. You're just like code, make the feature go. And then it's just like okay, and it just does something. And you're like this is terrible.

0:17:05 - Jeff Jarvis
And it's because Once you just slam it full of information, it does a pretty good job, or once you see the internet. So I was there to start at the start of Epicurious for Condé Nast, though, many years ago, and I watched this cultural conflict, the engineers we hired an engineering company and they said, okay, give us a spec for every single page you're ever going to have. And the editors said no, just start making pages, we'll know when we see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you can, and each was right and wrong in its own way, but now you can do that.

0:17:30 - Harper Reed
You can know it when you see it I do a lot of that with um v0 from vercel, which is a really fun product, where I just go to it and I'll just like type. This will be like if I'm, you know, you're on that call where you're kind of zoning out, you're just just kind of paying attention, you have, you're just a, it's just a checkbox to your presence. You're not participating there. I'll just be like fuck it, let's make a video game that's like our type from the 90s Neo Geo.

But I want it to be frogs fighting pizzas, and it's just some like asinine prompt and I just sit there and I wait like three minutes and I'm like, oh look at that, there's that game I wanted. I always wanted the you know fight to fight a pizza or whatever, and like I just do this over and over again, but it's kind of trivial right, I mean.

0:18:14 - Leo Laporte
By the way, here's V0. What can I help you ship? And then you write in the prompt and they have some examples people have done. But, harper, one of the criticisms of this is well, it can do that because it's writing like Flappy Bird's been written a thousand times. It's seen all that code, so it's writing something it already has in the LLM. It knows, but can it do original things?

0:18:39 - Harper Reed
I'll quote a movie, life of Brian. We are all individuals. I actually don't think there's that much unique stuff out there, like, if you're thinking about, what are we going to solve? Like, let's build social software. There's so much social software built, successful and otherwise, documented and otherwise that I think it's going to do a pretty good job at a lot of that stuff, right. That doesn't mean that a team of very experienced people with a lot of engineering experience aren't going to do better than a team of just neophytes who've never done anything, but there's still a lot of luck. You could build most of the things that my career has been defined by. I think you could build with one or two people in like a couple of days.

0:19:18 - Leo Laporte
Using AI.

0:19:19 - Harper Reed
Using AI. That doesn't mean it has the customers, it doesn't mean it has the growth. It doesn't mean it has or the, or the experience or the like feel of it. You still have to be good. One of my, one of my friends, an investor who's backed us um a couple times, james chan from bloomberg beta said early on, like this is a time of curation, this is a time of having like. Just because you can build an instagram clone doesn't mean that you're gonna build the next instagram right?

just because you can build an instagram clone doesn't mean that you're going to build the next instagram right just because you can build something doesn't mean it's going to be cool, feel good, people are going to love it, etc. You still have to be good at that, which means you, just because you can prompt it and say I want to make a video game that is a combination of teenage mutant, ninja, turtles and you know some chicago pizza company, like, like, that doesn't mean that anyone anyone is gonna play it or care or what have you, but this is very similar to what it was like before and I think it's okay.

0:20:14 - Leo Laporte
Okay, yeah, I mean. So it's good for an MVP, a Minimal Viable Product, but you still have. But I've always said this with anything the AI does, human input is critical to making it useful.

0:20:29 - Harper Reed
I also think that we could take some AI. We could go to descriptor whatever, pop it in a descript and we could replace AI with human engineers, and the same conversation applies.

0:20:39 - Leo Laporte
It would be the same thing.

0:20:40 - Harper Reed
It's the same thing, which is like humans are so is the AI, the equivalent of a junior engineer.

0:20:44 - Leo Laporte
Then what is the AI?

0:20:46 - Harper Reed
I just treat it like a collab collaborator. I don't know how to say that word.

0:20:49 - Leo Laporte
I was trying to say that word the other day an equal, a collaborator yeah, collaborator, that's how you say it. Yeah, I've wondered how to say that for years um, but uh um I, I, that's, by the way. What I do is tell people how to say things. That's my entire. That's my whole thing. That's gig.

0:21:04 - Harper Reed
I used to think it was like an intern, where you'd have this intern from some very fancy school and you bring them on and they knew everything. They were obnoxious, they knew everything, but they literally knew nothing. You know what I? Mean.

We've all worked with those people where, where you can ask them any fact and they're going to tell you with authority what it is. But then if you ask them like you know where do, like how much does a banana cost? No idea. They're going to be like I don't know. What do you mean? What's a banana?

0:21:27 - Leo Laporte
You buy a banana, so like these types of things.

0:21:30 - Harper Reed
Yeah, money money.

0:21:31 - Leo Laporte
They're savants in a way. They're idiot savants, kind of these AIs.

0:21:42 - Harper Reed
Well, yes, but one thing that I learned from Ethan Mollick, who I highly recommend reading, was oftentimes and I'm paraphrasing here, I don't think he actually said this, but oftentimes, when you find yourself stuck or the AI isn't doing this, well, whatever it might be, that's a prompt problem, that's not a capabilities problem, and so I don't know if that's true, I don't actually care if it's true, but I practice that if I'm talking to Claude or Chachi Poutine, it's not giving me the example or the results I want, then I'll be like okay, this is a me issue. I'll iterate much like I would on code or what have you to try and get to the right end, and usually two things will happen. One, I'll get there, or I'll just get distracted and start generating images of my friends doing asinine things.

0:22:26 - Leo Laporte
Which is basically time wasted, or maybe not. Maybe that's a good thing.

0:22:30 - Harper Reed
I mean. Leo, I think that life is too short to be worried about that, I mean it's fun I laugh and, like you know, like I'm going to walk outside and he get hit by a meteorite or something and I'm going to be very happy that I generated a pancake logo for my friend Clint.

0:22:45 - Leo Laporte
One of the things Ethan Mollick's doing that's interesting Jeff, you're probably familiar with it is Wharton Interactive. He teaches at Wharton, and the idea of using games and AI as a kind of a useful tool in education I think is very interesting. Yeah, All right. Well, I kind of want some best practices from you then, if we can, Harper, because you've written two really good pieces on how you use ai as a kind of partner coding. Yeah, is that a fair way to talk?

0:23:13 - Harper Reed
about it. Yeah, yeah, I um, I think this is a really good and important topic, because what I'm finding is a lot of folks are just trying to figure out how to effectively start.

0:23:28 - Leo Laporte
Well, you say, step one, get out of bed with wonder and optimism.

0:23:32 - Harper Reed
Yeah, which I think is bullshit. I don't think anyone actually does that. Let's be real, it's hard out here. It's hard out here for us AI programmers. I even say that. I even say like you know, like who am I kidding? But I think the first thing is this is the reason I put that in there is because the first thing is, if you're starting out with the assumption that it's not going to work, it's not going to work.

0:23:57 - Leo Laporte
That's a good point.

0:23:58 - Harper Reed
Like if you just start out and say this is a bunch of shit and we're all, it's only generates shit and it's all terrible, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which I hear all the time from friends.

Then it's not, you're never going to have any success, like that's just you're starting out with from a point, you're not. No, it's not about good intentions or not, I don't really care. It's mostly just about, like you have to assume that something good will happen for a good thing to happen and and otherwise You're just going to be because you have to prompt it like it's going to work. So the AI knows whether you believe in it or not. You've got to believe. That's the vibe.

0:24:32 - PC
Leo, that's what we're talking about with the vibe. Yeah, yeah.

0:24:34 - Harper Reed
It also starts to get religious at some point. And then we've all moved to San Francisco and talked about AGI, but I think the key that I have found is that I think there is a continuum, and on one side it starts with like code gen or, sorry, like autocomplete, and IntelliSense has been around for forever.

0:24:52 - Leo Laporte
You know you have all these really cool coders. Are used to that notion.

0:24:55 - Harper Reed
Yeah, and that's a normal thing. And so you start there and then you're like then you just get asking more and more, and then you start pasting code in and out of ChatShift, t and Cloud. And I think it's actually important to follow these steps because I think what happens if you go to the end? You don't have the nuance and the practice to prompt it appropriately, and so you end up making mistakes that are just incredibly frustrating, and then your response will be this doesn't work, it's all bull.

0:25:19 - Leo Laporte
So the first step is really dialoguing with the AI to understand better what it can do, what it needs to do, what you want it to do you.

0:25:29 - Harper Reed
There's a certain amount of training that's involved, of you as much as the ai, yeah yeah, and one of the things I think is really hard about this is it's just weird excuse me it is, it is weird, it's alien weird and it doesn't make any sense and you're also like. I am a very good programmer of python. Why am I literally yelling at a computer, you know like? Why am I yet like, why am I talking to a computer and why is this happening?

0:25:53 - Leo Laporte
you have to get over that, don't you? You really?

0:25:55 - Harper Reed
do I've? Noticed that too you have to get over that embarrassment of yeah, I'm talking to a computer yeah, I don't know, I don't know if you guys have taken waymos, but like I have this problem with Waymo's, which is very similar, which I'm done with the ride and I get out and I'm like, thanks, do I tip?

It's this thing of our whole lives have been spent to find this way to coerce the network around us of people, and now we're trying to find the delta between how to do that with a robot and not, and I think it's very, very difficult. But where the vibes coding kind of comes in is as you start upgrading down this path and you start doing more automation of your code base. There's a certain point where you're just kind of letting go and just kind of seeing what happens, and I think that is very uncomfortable for a very specific type of person who likes control. But you're not going to ship this code. Why not? Oh you are. Yeah, every day I'm shipping this code.

Well, the thing this is I was talking to a very talented programmer and he was like, yeah, but it's not production quality. And I'm like what is production quality? Right, my entire life I've programmed computers. A lot of code has gotten to production. There was a certain point where I kind of graduated and I wasn't allowed to put code into production. But there is a thing of like what does it look like? Every time I've entered a company and looked at the code, the first reaction is you're just like, oh God, this is horrible.

0:27:20 - PC
No one has looked at production code and been like this is perfect.

0:27:22 - Harper Reed
This is wonderful. There's always this visceral reaction of there's a lot of bubble gum and a lot of bailing wire. I don't think that human production code is much different than AI production code, except we can promise that AI production code is going to be normalized. So much Now the best practice. May not be your best practice, but it will be a best practice.

0:27:41 - Jeff Jarvis
Let me ask you a question there, because I'm not a programmer, but I've worked with many, and whenever you try to say, you get somebody new in and you say, well, this was already done, but can you revise it? They want to just throw it all out and redo it. Completely Right Law of nature. How is AI at revising code that somebody else did?

0:28:03 - Harper Reed
It's actually really funny. There's two answers to that. One we don't know, and that's the like just adding and editing to like big code bases. We just don't know yet. Like we don't know, most of the people who are doing code gen stuff right now are doing greenfield work on greenfield things and they're having a lot of success on that.

But the question I get most from my friends who are in engineering managing positions is I have a code base with hundreds of thousands of lines of code, if not millions of lines of code. I need to add this feature or fix this feature? How is?

it going to do with that and some people are doing it. There just isn't a lot of people testing it. I'm on my way to try and generate a lot of code, so I'll let you know in a couple of years or whatever, but we're not there yet. But the second one is in some cases it's easier to just have the AI redo the whole thing.

0:28:46 - Jeff Jarvis
It's so fast. Well, just like coders have always said too.

0:28:49 - Leo Laporte
But, it's faster than coders.

0:28:51 - Harper Reed
Here's an example that blew my mind. I was talking to this good friend of mine who has this wonderful company and he was showing me this code base. He had and he had 250 pull requests and I was like this is a mess, why do you have so many pull requests? He's like this is a mess, why do you have so many pull requests. And he was just like, oh, it's cool. So he showed me each pull request an AI had done. If the tests passed, he would examine it and just take a look, high level look and probably merge it. If the test failed, he closed the pull request without even taking a look at it.

It's cheap. Well, it's cheap, it's cheap from a time perspective. It why we'll just redo it. Why wouldn't we just redo the whole thing? And so, jeff, to answer your question, there's a chance that this is why I said like code quality may not matter. There's a chance that the fact that we worshipped this code, we were like it's done. Remember back in CD time? Go, master, we did it, let's ship it. Like you know, like Trick wrap, trick wrap.

0:29:51 - Leo Laporte
Like, have, we don't need that anymore if we build an ios app and it sucks, we just build another one tomorrow.

0:29:53 - Harper Reed
If that sucked, we built another one tomorrow.

0:29:54 - Leo Laporte
It really is a new way. It's a totally new way of thinking about this stuff. It's very strange. So, okay, so we've gone through. I was, I've used an intellisense, now I'm using copilot. Uh, it's, you know it's doing. It's basically kind of auto completion on steroids super, super intellisense and then, and then I'm pasting uh code into claude or chat gpt and yeah, you're still using your brain here like so yeah, you're still kind of thinking through your brain trying to figure out what's going on

0:30:19 - Harper Reed
you're doing the planning yourself and what you're finding is you're like this is really awesome, but I wish I could do more. And you look over at your friend and your friend's like playing video games while his computer's coding for them, and they're just like, well, how did you do that? And so then you start to think about, like AIDR or Klein or OpenAI just released Codex or whatever these things are which are these terminal applications that you can run? Hook them to an LLM and they just kind of do stuff in the background. Hook them to an LLM and they just kind of do stuff in the background. And it's fun to have them do stuff in the background, because you really can just do other things.

0:30:51 - Leo Laporte
What are they doing? They're writing like, are they? Are you giving them tasks and they're doing that in the background.

0:30:56 - Harper Reed
Yeah, so how? I'll just tell you my workflow, just because at this point, if you're in the agentic workflow part, this is like where I've been playing along with it. My team has been doing the same workflow. So kind of what you do is you go to like a ChatGPT or some place where your favorite LLM. I use ChatGPT for this because I really like their O1 Pro model, which is their expensive model.

0:31:18 - Leo Laporte
You point out in your blog post, though that's kind of a personal thing, you might like one better than the other.

0:31:23 - Harper Reed
And you might like Lama the run locally like whatever like whatever you know it doesn't really matter, because this process, what you're doing, is building context, so I'll go there. I did that earlier today. I got into the office around nine, eight, 45, nine o'clock. I spent eight 45 to about nine 15 talking to the LLM being like hey, I want to build this thing. Here's my idea and this is my favorite prompt and I I do this for all my prompts. Now I say ask me one question at a time. I prefer yes or no questions.

Okay and so then, and so, oh, look at that, and so what it will do I love that.

This is my favorite everyone hates this thing, but I think it's the best in the world, I think it's so good um, I will never turn it off that's ai so uh, but, but what I'll do, is I just the yes or no question thing is really great because it allows you to dive deep into these things without an overwhelming experience with the LLM. So it'll just be like hey, do you want people to log in with Google? Yes, they'll be like oh, do you want people to log in with an email? Yes.

So it goes through and as you're doing this, it's just building up more context about what you want to build. Then, once you feel like you have enough context injected into the machine, then you say write a spec for me, and that's when I'll switch it to O1 Pro and it will generate this very well thought out spec that then I can tweak and edit and make whatever I want into it. And then I'll say to that spec I'll say hey, can you go ahead and turn this into prompts? Once again, I'm still within the O1 Pro context. We turn this into prompts that I can pass to a code gen. So then I'll save the spec and then this new prompt plan, so to speak, into a directory and then I will go to Cloud Code in a terminal and I will say Cloud, look at the spec, here's the plan, just do it. And then I'll go and leave and then I'll come back and it'll be done And's largely.

There's a little bit of poking and prodding and it's asking questions and I that's, but that's largely what I do and with this you can ship. I think you can ship kind of anything. I think the limit is your patience for dealing with a bunch of nonsense that this thing is going to pop up, but having worked with software teams for most of my life, it's the same nonsense. Um, people are more fun. This is boring, but that's why you just surround yourself with people doing the same work, so you still get the fun. But then you don't have to talk about code.

0:33:31 - Leo Laporte
All right, I'm going to be the old timer, the gruff old timer, who thinks this is all hogwash, and ask you a few questions. How do I debug something that some machine wrote that I don't even maybe understand how it works?

0:33:48 - Harper Reed
Someone told me a way to do this that I really, really like, which is you do what they call checkpointing, and so this is like in a video game where you have a save point. Right, you're going through the video game, you pass that little flag and now it's saved, and if you mess up your game, you just go back to that point. So that's kind of what you do. So you just go back to that point. So that's kind of what you do. So you just don't debug, you just redo it until it works um so like, and so it's this funny thing, kind of back to the code is really cheap. Now this is where I tests to do this. Oh man, so many tests, so many tests. I've had more tests in the last year than I've had my entire life.

0:34:20 - Leo Laporte
Does the ai write the tests or do you yeah?

0:34:22 - Harper Reed
I write the tests, but I'll do a lot of passes where I'll take the entire code base, jam it into um Claude or Chachiviti or whatever, and I'll say um where are my missing tests?

0:34:34 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I love that.

0:34:35 - Harper Reed
And then I'll have it build those tests.

0:34:37 - Leo Laporte
Is it pretty reliable when you do that?

0:34:39 - Harper Reed
Yeah, of course it's missing. Tests are horrible because there's always going to be one that humans are very bad at tests. Terrible. Humans are very bad at tests. The machines are very good at it, and so I have a couple of projects that we've been working on that are rust, that have like 100% test coverage, every line of code is tested.

Now some of this is really stupid, because you're like why do I need to test this line of code? But it's cheap. It's cheap. I mean, it's not. The time of running the test isn't cheap, that's forever.

0:35:08 - All
But it is cheap to get there. And then, once you get there, you're like, oh great, I have all this test.

0:35:10 - Harper Reed
Yeah, so then you save it and you basically save it and then you have it, go do stuff and if it messes up you're like, ah, try again, clear the context, reset back to the test to checkpoint and do it again. Once the agent started running the tests, that's really when everything changed.

0:35:27 - Leo Laporte
Wow, now you're using AIDR. You like to do this on the command line as opposed to in VS Code, or something.

0:35:34 - Harper Reed
I mean what? I've always been a terminal person. Yeah, I mean I started running Linux in 93, you know, back when you still had telephones, and I think that there's a thing about that that I will always be most comfortable in that space. But I have many friends who've used Windsurf and Cursor and all these other things that really like that vibe. I just that's just not my happy space and I like when someone was like this is vibe coding, I was just like I'm in, man, let's burn some incense, let's dress comfortably, like use what tools are comfortable for you.

I am, so I am not worried about what I used to be worried about. It used to be like let's make sure the whole team is using a consistent tool set, let's make sure everyone is programming in the same language, so on and so forth. But if we hired someone to do a project and they're like we're going to do it in PHP or Haskell or whatever, if we hired someone to do a project and they're like we're going to do it in PHP or Haskell or whatever and we thought we could host it and we could do it, well then I'm not worried about that Because honestly, they're just being Vinay, making sure the spec works, making sure that everything is tight, making sure the requirements document is up to speed, and then the computer is doing the code. So I think this is a very it's very bizarre. I'm very uncomfortable with this, to be very clear, and I'm not quite sure where it falls out, but I would say right now, 80% of our code is being generated by AI.

0:36:56 - Leo Laporte
Who's us?

0:36:58 - Harper Reed
I have a small company called 2389, which is 2389.ai, and yeah, we're building some very strange things and it's all AI generated.

0:37:10 - Leo Laporte
I love it. So there's a famous comment in some old code that says you are not expected to understand this.

0:37:18 - Harper Reed
Yes, yes, yes. That's how I feel every day.

0:37:20 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, don't change it. I understand it. I wrote it, but you're not expected to understand it. Don't change it. It understand it. I wrote it, but you're not expected to understand it. Don't change it. It's a very famous comment, but that bothers people, when at least it used to. I don't understand this code. Do you always understand what the AI code is doing?

0:37:40 - Harper Reed
I never understand. I barely understand it right now. Here's what happens and it's very funny. I said this before and someone got kind of mad at me. I don't think that humans' context window is as big as some of these AIs. Yeah, I think you're right.

0:37:57 - Leo Laporte
I think that's exactly right.

0:37:59 - Harper Reed
I just don't have as much space in my head as I thought I had. I used to think I could hold the entire idea of it and I can think of the spec and all that stuff. But when you start looking at all this code, there's a point where I'm like, ah, and I can feel it. I'm like I've lost control. Like I was going, I was totally under control and then I lost control and I'll just be like, well, there it goes. I no longer am able to understand it. But there's another thing that I always remember, which is I can just ask, I can just be like hey, Claude, what's going on? Why, what's happening? Why is this? What does this file do? What does this part do? Because, unlike that comment of the past, the person that wrote that probably was not very fun to work with. No, Probably was kind of a curmudgeon.

0:38:37 - Leo Laporte
Kind of snotty.

0:38:40 - Harper Reed
Yeah, Snotty didn't trust you, wouldn thought you weren't good enough. Ai doesn't care, It'll be like oh, that's a great question, Harper. I was waiting for you to ask that. Here's what that does.

0:38:48 - Leo Laporte
I have thought AI would be very good at explaining code. Actually, You're right.

0:38:51 - Harper Reed
So I'm not worried about that. What I am worried about, though, is getting to the point where you are supporting a product that you truly have no idea how it works.

0:39:02 - Leo Laporte
That's a little scary.

0:39:05 - Harper Reed
I think what's going to happen is much like when Agile came out, much like when any kind of when mobile came out. You start to get new tooling and so what we haven't seen yet is what is the tooling look like? I mean, we're starting to see some of the dev tools et cetera, but I mean, like, what is the tooling that is going to support the engineers, the engineering teams, the founders, etc. And I think there's an important example. A good example would be formal verification. So if you're using like a Rust or some of these compiled languages, you can formally verify that it does what it does, and I think that's something that people are going to start relying on so that they can prove that the code that the AI wrote, even though it hasn't had human eyes on it, kind of does what it says it does.

Now, I know that, as saying this, this is a little sacrilegious, too Sacrilegious I don't know how to say that word either but this is. I guess this is bad. Like most of my engineering manager friends are going to die, Like they're all going to say, Harper, what are you doing?

0:40:06 - Jeff Jarvis
You to come to the party and I don't know what to say.

0:40:08 - Harper Reed
Like, I think this is the future and I think it's unfortunate that this is where we're at, because it's just, I don't think we're going back and I think that's scary.

0:40:14 - Leo Laporte
I thought maybe I had decoded the name of 2389 Research.

0:40:18 - Harper Reed
You'd never guess what it is.

0:40:20 - Leo Laporte
Well.

0:40:21 - Paris Martineau
I thought I had, because my one thought is that you said 30% of your company is now AI. That's 716 of 20.

0:40:31 - Harper Reed
Well, it's actually really boring. It's just our birthday. Months ascending, oh.

0:40:38 - Paris Martineau
You know, when you start a company, you've no idea. What did you think it was, Leo?

0:40:41 - Leo Laporte
Well, the line number of the code comment you are not expected to understand this is something like 2389.

0:40:50 - Harper Reed
If that's it, I'll just change it. We're telling people it's our favorite parts of pie. Oh, that's good too.

0:40:58 - Leo Laporte
And then now you just have to figure out where that is.

0:41:00 - Harper Reed
Yeah, it's a really good part. It's right around.

0:41:04 - Leo Laporte
It's the middle of pie, halfway to the end.

0:41:07 - Harper Reed
Half, halfway to the end, halfway halfway to the end, exactly uh, the the blog posts at harperblog.

0:41:14 - Leo Laporte
Uh, there's a new one. Uh, the original one. This is the new one llm cogens hero's journey. The one I read that actually prompted me to call you was my llm cogen workflow at the moment and it's really good and it really is a great place to start. If you're thinking about playing around in this, and I think the fact that you've done this so much now, harper, is actually encouraging, because you're a smart guy and you're not. I don't think you would be advocating this if there were serious issues with it oh, I think I would, I think I would you would okay.

Well, I mean never mind what would I?

0:41:51 - Paris Martineau
I mean he wants to clarify that he's.

0:41:53 - Leo Laporte
I'm sorry I trusted you forget it no no, I think.

0:41:55 - Harper Reed
I think the problem here is that, um, we really don't know how this is going to end that's true and what I mean by that is I mean this very specific thing that I'm sure, like y'all, I have a lot of friends who've been laid off from tech jobs over the last two years, a lot recently, and I don't think they're getting jobs again, Like, I don't think. I think this is very similar to 2003 with print designers and probably very similar to accountants. But I with print designers and probably very similar to accountants, but I wouldn't know about that. That's more you know back in the back in the early 1800s for Jeff Jarvis. But the thing is, is that.

I think. I think I think there's okay 15 years, yeah. So yeah, we need to be accurate, but I think there is a. There is a reality here that, as much as we are benefiting from this, there is a downside, which is, you know, I'm not I'm personally not hiring as many people Like. I have a team of people I've worked with for the last 20 years that I really like working with and we just don't need as many people anymore and that's there's some really scary aspects, so I've got a question for you.

0:42:58 - Jeff Jarvis
Go ahead, you go first.

0:42:59 - Paris Martineau
I assume it's going to be the same question what are you going to do when you're the person whose job is eliminated?

0:43:06 - Harper Reed
I'm going to be. I'm going to be so happy I'm going to be. Are you serious? I've been trying to to to force myself out of a job for years. That's my dream. I just want to go and lay in a park and read books Like that's. That's really what I want to do.

0:43:19 - Leo Laporte
So do you believe in UBI? Is that a?

0:43:39 - Harper Reed
Oh yeah, a hundred percent%, yeah, and all those people who are like but what will humans do? It's like, bro, what do you mean? Have you been anywhere on a weekend? Like, what are you talking about? I would never plan that, but I do think that there are some really scary aspects to this and I do think we are underestimating the impacts of how this will work.

And I think we're seeing a lot of founders like myself, big company CEOs, et cetera, who I was just talking to, someone who is like I want to know how to use this in my company and I want you to work with my tech team to like help the tech team use this more. And I was like, yeah, but we're kind of having them dig their own grave, like it's kind of messed up, and so, like, we, we are not prepared for that. And so I've been thinking a lot about like what does that mean and how does work? At the same time, you know, still got to eat. So I'm over here trying to, you know, hustle in the token mines, trying to build some cool company.

0:44:31 - Leo Laporte
This is an age old problem, though is productivity improves people's jobs.

0:44:36 - Harper Reed
I mean, I noticed something when I've been thinking about this a lot because of the waterfall stuff when I got my first job in 2001,. You know, it was like a huge room full of of of these little. What are the cubicles? Um, you know, just as far as you think I can see with like tech people, yeah, engineers skinny black ties and pocket right.

0:44:54 - Leo Laporte
Exactly, I had to dress up every day, yeah exactly, and then that shrunk.

0:44:58 - Harper Reed
By 2005 I was on a team of like 20 people, and then by 2007 it was 10, so on and so forth. So it's not like this started with AI.

0:45:07 - Leo Laporte
No, this is what computers do in general, right, yeah they democratize it. So I have a different question, not that it's a wonderful thing for the people who lose their jobs, but it's kind of, you know, I don't know how you avoid it.

0:45:22 - Jeff Jarvis
I teach or try to, and helping start a new program in technology, ai and society, and wondering what young people should do, advise either a university or its students who are interested in technology, who love it and want to do things with it. What should they be doing?

0:45:43 - Harper Reed
I think just experimenting at this moment. Um, there's something that I noticed, which is my brother, actually Dylan. He's Dylan, I think he's Dylan, not Dylan, I don't remember. So he's a microblog as well. But he texted me one day and was just like hey, I wrote a video game. And I was like what do you mean? You wrote a video game, you're not a programmer.

0:46:00 - Leo Laporte
Last night.

0:46:19 - Harper Reed
Yeah, exactly, he's just like no, I just wrote a video game and I was like, oh, that's new and unique information and that that is, I think, what where we're at some cool parts about this as well, which is the people out there who have the patience to dig in and experience it. You actually see one right there. That's a Mint, my friend Mint, who comes in and he hacks on this product that he has that he did not have six months ago. He's not a programmer. He's learning how to program. He's using Replit Agent, he's using V0. He's using all these things to build this stuff. He has a.

You know he's doing it, and the point is is that he's spending the time to do it, and so if I was going to talk to students today, I think I would just suggest just try it out. Try it on, See how it feels. If it doesn't work, try it again. Read the Ethan Mollick book. I think his book is really good at kind of summarizing how to think about this. If you start out saying it's not going to work, it's of course not going to work, but if you try it like, build something weird, build a mobile app, build an iOS app You've never heard that iOS is a thing great.

0:47:28 - Leo Laporte
Try it, you can achieve almost anything with enough patience, and that's a limiting factor. I think that's very exciting and also very terrifying thing about this time that we are in a time of experimentation. Everything is changing so rapidly and we don't know where it's going. You can't say with confidence uh, don't become a programmer. You can't say anything, you. But I think you're right, harper, become an experimenter. By the way, I got out my copy of lions commentary on unix sixth edition and in fact, the code comment you are not expected to understand. This is online 2238.

0:48:04 - Paris Martineau
So oh, so close I think that might be the necessary next step.

0:48:09 - Leo Laporte
It's a really good Easter egg you could get AI to do it for you, you don't have to do any of the work. I could.

I could. It says, if the new process paused because it was swapped out, set the stack level to the last call to save you. You. Ssav, that means the return which is executed immediately after the call to R at you. U-s-s-a-v, that means the return which is executed immediately after the call to R-R-U actually returns from the last routine which did the save you. You are not expected to understand this, and that's Unix baby, right in a nutshell.

0:48:37 - Paris Martineau
Wait, what's your company's number again?

0:48:39 - Harper Reed
2389. So close. What is line?

0:48:43 - Paris Martineau
2389, Leo.

0:48:45 - Leo Laporte
Oh, that's a good question. Line 2389 is blank that's actually that's why we chose it, because it's a white field it's a white field yeah, yeah, we're ready to go.

0:48:58 - Harper Reed
We're filling it in.

0:49:00 - Leo Laporte
You are an you are an idea guy. You never fail to inspire, you never fail to excite me with your enthusiasm for life, and I think you've made a damn fine case for getting out there experimenting. Go to harper's blog and read these two posts to get started. Uh, harperblog, I I really think there's a lot of meat in here and there's some also some great pictures. And uh, you can, you can, uh, you can use it to uh start your own journey. Your own experimentation makes me want to. You know, harper, I'm so old. I wish I could start over again. I would love to be young right now and and and playing with this stuff. I think it's very, very exciting.

0:49:43 - Harper Reed
I like that. That's the thing you would do if you were young again you know what I would like to do if I was young again is go inside and use a computer and enjoy the world.

0:49:51 - Leo Laporte
No, I can do that when I'm old.

0:49:55 - Harper Reed
But I do think that it is worthwhile, no matter what. I have so many friends that are like I could never become a programmer. I think the exciting thing is you can just go to like Bolt or lovable or any of these apps, and just build the thing you've always wanted to build and see how it goes, and that's a big change to what we were doing before. Like we didn't have that opportunity. You could not reasonably tell someone just learn how to build a mobile app.

That's an asinine thing to tell someone. Now, you can just be like no, just build the mobile app. It's easy to do so, and it really is easy. Now, will it scale to a billion users? Well, that seems like a problem that you'll figure out. If you have that problem, you'll figure out a solution.

0:50:36 - Leo Laporte
It's an exciting and interesting time. Interesting times are not necessarily the best times, yes, but it is interesting.

0:50:46 - Harper Reed
You can't deny that it's uncomfortable but good, I think yeah, harper, great to see you again.

0:50:51 - Leo Laporte
Thank you so much for coming on and exciting us with your ideas. I appreciate it. Harper reed, ladies and gentlemen, all right, we're gonna take a break, we will come back and, uh, we'll talk about cluey or whatever that is. I don't even know what that is we will find out.

0:51:04 - Paris Martineau
We'll find out. I'll get a, I'll get clued in, you'll get a cluey, or whatever that is. I don't even know what that is we will find out.

0:51:06 - Leo Laporte
We'll find out.

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End quote. Start protecting your sensitive data wherever that data lives. Bigidcom slash IM. Get a free demo to see how BigID can help your organization reduce data risk and accelerate, safely, the adoption of generative AI. Again, that's BigID B-I-G-I-D. Bigidcom slash I-M. By the way, there's a free guide that can help you understand the risks of generative AI and data-driven strategies to ensure responsible and compliant AI adoption Something everybody needs to read. That, and BigID can help, of course. Bigidcom slash I am. It's the next era of data security, compliance and AI. Bigidcom slash I am. We thank them so much for supporting us at this show, intelligent Machines. We invite you to support us too by going there and using that address so they know you saw it here. Big idcom slash I am. All right, I want to know about cluey. Now you got me all excited. Cluey is somebody, is like a children's show character so this all started.

0:55:23 - Paris Martineau
You may have recall, uh, I think in February or March, or at least I noticed on Twitter there was this kid who kept going viral because he was talking about how he's a sophomore at Columbia and he used some app he created in order to get job offers from Amazon, tiktok, a bunch of other tech companies by cheating Amazon, TikTok, a bunch of other tech companies by cheating. Basically, it was an app that would kind of run undetected in the background. Whenever they would ask him like leet code style questions, it would answer it for him, and he claims that he got job offers through this and then documented it in this thread that went viral, resulting in Columbia basically reaching out to discipline him because I guess he had, you know, done something kind of strange. Then he recorded the discipline hearings using this tool. Oh, my God Posted that online.

Then Columbia found him guilty of blasting their employees all over social media, so they expelled him, instead of just their employees all over social media. So they expelled him instead of just suspending him. And today, or at least this week, he announced that his new product called Cluely, which isn't just for cheating on interviews, it's for cheating on everything, and there's a video to describe this if you'd like to play it.

0:56:41 - Leo Laporte
So and by the way, this is all part of a thread, a blue sky thread, about how awful this is. Everything about the tech and AI world makes me sick to my stomach. It's deeply antisocial.

0:56:54 - Jeff Jarvis
And the big question is what's cheating Right. Thank you.

0:57:00 - Paris Martineau
It's a guy on a date. Okay, so how?

0:57:03 - PC
old did you say you were? I'm 30, 30, 30 years old. See, it is it? In his glasses you worked at bananas on. Uh, yeah, yeah, I've been there for the past eight years doing um, like senior software engineering. So you know, like coding, really we look I, I know I look a little young for my age, but, um, I promise you I'm, I'm 30 years old, okay. Well, maybe you are just way older than you look so how's he seeing this or this is just a matter of this doesn't exist.

0:57:39 - Jeff Jarvis
If you had something to help you cheat if you had started another Burge Bird's Rack on an app.

0:57:45 - Leo Laporte
And then Onion Person, juniper Beer, who's the one who posted this, finds this deeply disturbing, deeply awful, anti-human garbage. We want you to cheat on everything. This is from Clueley. Yep, you heard that right Sales calls, meetings, negotiations. If there's a faster way to win, we'll take it. We built Clueley so you never have to think alone again. It sees, we'll take it. We built clueless so you never have to think alone again. It sees your screen here's your audio feeds. You answers in real time while others guess you're already right. Have you ever heard of this thing? Clueless b? Because it kind of sounds like you. I'm thinking, uh, maybe I already have this and yes, it does sound similar.

0:58:22 - AI
Clueless is an ai designed to assist with various tasks by interacting with users in real time. Much like I do. However, the context of its functions, especially concerning sales calls and negotiations, can be pretty controversial. Are you curious about how cluey works or its implications?

0:58:39 - Paris Martineau
the voice just really makes me laugh, if it sounded like this it would just not be the same.

0:58:47 - Leo Laporte
Uh and yes, they say the world will call it cheating. But so was the calculator, so was spellcheck so was google every time technology makes us smarter, the world panics, and then it adapts, then it forgets and suddenly it's normal. Ai is not just another tool that will redefine how our world works. Why memorize facts, write code, research anything, when a model could do it in seconds? So define cheating.

0:59:13 - Paris Martineau
Well, lying is not good, so I think that that video is unfortunate because it was a lot of lying yeah, the video ends by uh, him trying to order a beverage and the waiter or wine, and the waiter realizing he has a fake ID and giving him grape juice instead and the girl storms out. And then the AI helps him write an apology in real time to try and win her back.

0:59:38 - Leo Laporte
So that's a very poor example, but I do agree that the calculator it would be so, hey, do you have my new moral panic uh video, because I think this is cheating hey that's my franchise so for those who are only listening. There is a leo, looks a lot like me, but as you peel the skin back, underneath is a robot head it's upsetting laser eyes laser eyes, skin does not peel back in the way that you'd think well, it's an ai. What do you want?

1:00:19 - Paris Martineau
I mean, my problem with this is just well, you wouldn't want to date this guy I wouldn't want to date this guy, but two like it perhaps. Yes, one. I don't think we even can say whether or not his claim is accurate that he used this and got him four jobs

at these things but let's pretend that it is. That says more about the ease the thing. The reason why companies like this ask you to solve like questions that are on like elite code and whatnot, in order to pass some bar of an interview is to understand how your mind works and test your skills. If you're able to bypass all of that with ai, I mean.

1:01:02 - Jeff Jarvis
I think that's doing everyone a disservice. Two questions Okay, if you use it to get the job or the date or the degree, maybe, but once you have it, once you're doing the job. If you use this to do a better sales call, what's the harm, what's wrong with that?

1:01:16 - Leo Laporte
What's the harm? You're making it up anyway. As we all know, in sales it's all made up anyway. There's a testing phase and there's a doing phase. I do have a kind of a values-driven opinion about that. People shouldn't lie. You shouldn't say you're 30 when you're 19, obviously. But I don't think it's cheating to use AI to supplement your knowledge.

1:01:38 - Paris Martineau
Yes, and I agree, if you're truthful about it. I think it would be a totally different conversation if the pitch for this was tell everybody yeah, I'm going to answer these interview questions, but I'll be using an AI assistant and I'll also be using that while working. Sure, go for that, but people probably aren't going to want to hire you because they want to hire someone who has these skills innately and could be even better with AI.

1:02:00 - Leo Laporte
Right.

1:02:03 - Benito Gonzalez
I'm trying to run cluelessly right now. The technology isn't't bad, but the way they're presenting it is really telling about who they are.

1:02:11 - Leo Laporte
I think the app lies because, no, you know what? I'll tell you the truth. That's just good marketing. This kid is brilliant, he's a marketer, and what better way to get us and everybody in the world talking about him and saying, hey, you should use AI to help you cheat? That's all.

1:02:30 - Jeff Jarvis
It's just good marketing. I and I, frankly, I tried to run his app, but it doesn't seem to run, so maybe the whole thing is bs.

1:02:33 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I mean, that was. He's just a con man. He's, uh, the anna delvey of 2025, that's all he's if he has a lawyer.

1:02:42 - Jeff Jarvis
He leo's just joking, he's not really saying is that.

1:02:46 - Leo Laporte
Would that be liable to say you're the Annie Del? Well, to say you're a con man? I guess, yeah, that'd be, yeah. Yeah, you're not a con man, you're just a.

1:02:56 - Paris Martineau
That we know.

1:02:58 - Leo Laporte
Prevaricating son of a gun. You're a clever.

1:03:02 - Jeff Jarvis
Which is otherwise known as a good marketer, which is otherwise known as a good marketer.

1:03:05 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, no, it's brilliant marketing, isn't it? Yeah, gets people upset. That's good marketing.

1:03:14 - Jeff Jarvis
Threads about getting expelled from Columbia are certainly good and maybe Columbia could have had a piece of this IP, but no more, because Columbia is just doing everything wrong these days.

1:03:19 - Benito Gonzalez
And maybe we shouldn't praise just good marketing Like why is that good?

1:03:24 - Leo Laporte
No, no, I agree. No, no, no. I'm not praising it in that sense, I'm just saying the whole thing is an exercise in marketing.

1:03:33 - Paris Martineau
Don't take it so seriously, rather than anything, about the technology.

1:03:35 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, he raised $5.3 million for Cluley. Oh boy. Yeah, Columbia maybe should have thought a little harder on this.

1:03:48 - Jeff Jarvis
Because, they need the money these days.

1:03:49 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, abstract Ventures and Sousa Ventures gave him $5.3 million. It's an interesting thought. So what did he do? He was using it.

1:04:03 - Jeff Jarvis
If you called this agentic AI, maybe he would have gotten a billion dollars, but that's what it is part of the reason he wrote it, I'm sure.

1:04:11 - Leo Laporte
Is these ridiculous tech interviews right, yeah? Where you're asked to perform like a dancing monkey in ways that don't really tell the interviewer or the company anything about you? Right, and to come up with it? If you can cheat on it, then that just shows you how dumb it is right.

1:04:32 - Jeff Jarvis
Um sales calls yeah, or also customer service calls, if it, if it actually listens to what I need and and pleases me and has the authority.

1:04:44 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I'm not sure agentic ai is going to be a bad thing for things like that. Uh, if it gets the job done. Harper's point, which I think was well taken, is that we have these kind of they're almost prejudices about how things ought to be and that really we just need to be a little more open about a world that is changing rapidly. Maybe it isn't good, but we gotta but we to play with it to know. We got to try it to know. I don't know, he's like me. He doesn't know what the end game is going to look like. Maybe this is all a waste of time, but it's interesting to experiment with it. I would say Did you see how ChatGPT solved five years of jaw clicking?

1:05:25 - Paris Martineau
I did see this was really interesting.

1:05:27 - Leo Laporte
Now this is actually a known fix, but somebody posted on Reddit. I've had jaw clicking on the left side for over five years, probably from a boxing injury, and every time I open my mouth would pop or shift.

1:05:40 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, it's a humble brag notably, this is the chat GPT subreddit, just to be clear oh yeah, I just, I just started getting this two weeks ago, so I'm very eager to hear.

1:05:50 - Leo Laporte
I figure it was permanent damage. He's been to a lot of doctors asked, you know. Yesterday I randomly asked chat GPT about it. It gave me a detailed explanation saying the disc in my jaw was probably just slightly displaced, but still movable, and suggested a specific way to open my mouth slowly while keeping my tongue on the roof of my mouth and watching for symmetry. I followed the instructions for maybe a minute max and suddenly no click. I opened and closed my jaw over and over again. It tracked perfectly. Still no clicking today. So that by itself, yeah, yeah, fine. But then all the responses oh my God, it worked for me too. Mine does this too keep tongue on mouth.

1:06:32 - Jeff Jarvis
Holy cow, this worked for me well maybe it learned it from a, from a doctor oh, it did.

1:06:37 - Leo Laporte
Said this, oh by the way, if you continue down the thread, this is a known, so it's not the ai that's smart. The ai didn't invent it. It invent it. But the point is that the AI was able to scan vast amounts of information.

1:06:48 - Jeff Jarvis
Like gee, I went to Google and asked this or gee. I went to a library, or I went to I don't know a dentist.

1:06:53 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I'll give you some PDF links on this from, for instance, the TMJ exercises from the National Health Service. It's in there, it explains it in more detail and obviously chat GPT ingested this. But the point is you could go to a hundred doctors and they may not know this or they may have probably forgotten it, but chat GPT doesn't forget everything and knows everything. And, by the way, I mean this this reddit threads. Thank you, this worked for me. I've had this for 10 plus years. I mean it's amazing.

Physical therapists respond the tongue positioning of the roof of your mouth actually increases the activity of the muscles in your jaw, called the pterygoids. This stabilizes jaw mechanics as you open pretty important. Now, obviously it's not going to work for all kinds of jaw clicking or tmj, but I was blown away by the overflow number of responses. Wtf, it worked for me too. I thought this was a forever thing for me. How many people have this and the information's out there. But it's just. I mean, it's just, it's just out there. You, how do you get it? So I was.

1:08:03 - Jeff Jarvis
I was thinking about how do I get it to do it? It doesn. I was thinking about how do I get it to do it. It doesn't happen every time. How do I get it to do it for the dentist, so the dentist can figure it out? So this is yeah, well.

1:08:12 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, Jeff, why haven't you found this out? To answer Louis' question.

1:08:16 - Jeff Jarvis
You know I just had the. I had the boxing match on CNN with Scott Jennings and then after that, why do you go on? With that right hook.

1:08:25 - Leo Laporte
Why do you even give that guy?

1:08:29 - Jeff Jarvis
I know I was on again last night I have unsubscribed now to the washington post.

1:08:35 - Leo Laporte
Whoa? Uh well, you did too no, I, I still subscribe oh no, I unsubscribed. That was it the? Information because I unsubscribed. I stopped watching cnn, especially I unsubscribe, I stopped watching CNN, especially now I MSNBC. The same thing's gonna happen. They fired all those people. I'm sick of this and I'm gonna use my you're mad as hell and not for a ticket anymore to vote by walking, because I have no power at all in any of this. But but I'm a pretend, I do.

1:09:10 - Jeff Jarvis
We test feel a little power. You did look like the old man with the balloons right. No, I'm the guy.

1:09:14 - Paris Martineau
You've got to get your computer to do that little balloon thing, and then it'll really be a turn that on.

1:09:18 - Leo Laporte
Sure. I don't know what the command is for it, but I don't either, but you can actually do it from the command line. It's an apple.

1:09:27 - Jeff Jarvis
It's an apple. It's an apple thing, not a yeah, yeah you haven't.

1:09:30 - Paris Martineau
You're on an apple, right now I can't.

1:09:32 - Jeff Jarvis
Why doesn't this? Did you turn off the ability for the zoom to do that?

1:09:36 - Paris Martineau
oh, there we go, oh can you look sad because your wife just died, angry a little grumpy too.

1:09:46 - Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, no, no, not too much, too much back. A little bit there you go.

1:09:49 - Paris Martineau
Oh, I really like that. That's really good. The slowness of the balloons is really what does it for me. It's not. They're not rising fast, it's just kind of see.

1:10:01 - Jeff Jarvis
What's irritating me is now. Leo is going to be either from that or from the moral panic. He's going to be alone on the card. Oh my God, this is good too.

1:10:08 - Leo Laporte
You're kicking us off. I wish I could combine this with the balloons, little rain and balloons.

1:10:14 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, how do I turn these on?

1:10:16 - Leo Laporte
Are you on a Mac? I am yeah.

1:10:18 - Jeff Jarvis
I am too.

1:10:27 - Benito Gonzalez
Okay, there's a little thing in your menu bar that is the uh that maybe it's a zoom or it's on the camera.

1:10:29 - Leo Laporte
Times have changed. Everyone used to be like how do I?

1:10:31 - Paris Martineau
turn this off. Now. Everybody wants to turn it on. Yeah, yeah, I know, I turned it off at some point for this reason, but now this seems fine is the system preferences, I can never trigger it.

1:10:38 - Leo Laporte
It was funny that harper had it on and triggered it. Uh, yeah, probably is, I don't know. It's in my menu bar, but I don't know it's because my camera has a menu bar probably wait, you know, you guys recently, uh twit recently turned 20.

1:10:51 - Paris Martineau
Do you want to know? It also turned 20 youtube I thought it was for me I went to youtube and I saw a cake.

1:10:58 - Leo Laporte
I thought that was nice of them celebrating our 20th anniversary. So we started at the same time as youtube, apparently slightly before you didn't know that there's a little uh little logo here, a little dancing going on, uh, party animals. Join us in celebrating 20 years of creators, artists and transforming video on youtube. Now I'm gonna press this button. I don't know what's gonna happen. It says cut the cake.

1:11:24 - Benito Gonzalez
I wonder if they're gonna let oh, youtube, youtube rickrolled me wow, a rare on-screen rickroll that's not nice.

1:11:36 - Leo Laporte
Youtube not okay.

1:11:38 - Benito Gonzalez
The funny thing is but made you too big? Is that they were. That's how you got rickrolled, as they sent you a youtube link. Yeah, it probably helped.

1:11:43 - Leo Laporte
That's how you got Rickrolled? Is they sent you a?

1:11:44 - Benito Gonzalez
YouTube link. That was-. Yeah, it probably helped. That's how YouTube got big.

1:11:46 - Leo Laporte
I think it was dick in the box, but okay, you know we could fight over that we had. It's so funny, they were running it still until recently in Canada, when I was doing the show Call for Help in Canada in Toronto, my co-host, amber McArthur this is around 2004, 2005 brought in and she said oh, you got to see this new site, it's called YouTube, you can share videos and and I'm going oh, this is wow, what a great idea. This is so cool. But that's fine in 2004, but when you air that in 2021, it makes me, makes us, look like complete morons. Wow, what is this YouTube thing of which you speak? I was glad they finally, I think, stopped airing it. China, of all places, is cracking down on autonomous car claims. We've had how many fatal accidents here in the.

US. Yeah Jesus, authorities in China now prohibit the use of autonomous and smart driving in car ads. Wonder if they'd allow autopilot? It's funny because the dmv has accused tesla of falsely portraying its vehicles as autonomous based on the language on its website, but it didn't ban it hey, but according to elon musk on uh, the earnings call, this week in june we're gonna have autonomous uh model y is driving around austin.

1:13:12 - Paris Martineau
So what do you do? What are?

1:13:14 - Leo Laporte
you what's going on in his brain? Do you think?

1:13:18 - Paris Martineau
that's. That's a big question.

1:13:20 - Leo Laporte
We're slipping through chemistry. I mean 71 drop in revenue year over year for Tesla.

1:13:26 - Paris Martineau
He promises he's going back.

1:13:29 - Leo Laporte
He says I'm going to only do Doge two days a week Legitimately.

1:13:33 - Paris Martineau
Maybe this is just my news alerts, but I got the news alert 71% drop in revenue at Tesla. And then the news alert Elon Musk promises he's leaving Doge and going back to Tesla as soon as possible.

1:13:49 - Leo Laporte
It's like yeah, but take a look at the Tesla stock price 71% drop in revenue. The stock price went up.

1:13:58 - Paris Martineau
Well, it went up because Elon said he's going back to Tesla. It went down and then it went back up.

1:14:04 - Leo Laporte
It's a meme stock. It's not a real stock. No, it's just because it went down and then it's like it's a meme stock. It's not a real stock. It's not because, honestly, I mean I don't I don't own any tesla stock or anything else, but it does seem to me not a great investment.

1:14:14 - Jeff Jarvis
Look, here's the even more clear I there was an etf where you could buy the etf to short it, so I did for 200 bucks for oh, you're one of those shorters.

1:14:24 - Leo Laporte
You know for the longest time because I was a big tesla fan. I remember I I cried when I went to the, when I picked up my model x back in 2015 and I got the tour of the factory. I was in tears. I was so moved by the mission and your wife cried when the door hit her. There was a. There were. There were many more tears shed for various reasons, many more tears shed for various reasons.

She hated that car, she called it christine, and after three years I did turn it back in. So I no longer drive a tesla, although I've. It's a fun thing. My son, who, as you know, is moved to new york he's opening his restaurant. By the way, made memorial day weekend, may 31st. Oh, grand opening of Salt Hanks sandwiches on Bleeker Street, right next to John's, and apparently a mortuary is right there too.

1:15:12 - Jeff Jarvis
Yes, there is, that's right.

1:15:15 - Leo Laporte
I've been watching Henry's vlogs. Anyway, when he left California, he left his Tesla behind. Right, he's not gonna drive in New York. He didn't want to have a car in New York. So I have a Model Y in my driveway, oh no and do you ask yourself model y why?

1:15:30 - Paris Martineau
why?

1:15:31 - Leo Laporte
I'm watching the price you know you know what, leo?

1:15:36 - Jeff Jarvis
here's a way to make money with it. You charge 250 each. To come with a sledgehammer oh and smash it oh, oh, that's a.

1:15:46 - Leo Laporte
I'll ask Henry if he'll let me do that. What a good idea.

1:15:50 - Paris Martineau
That could be one of the hours on our 24-hour live.

1:15:54 - Leo Laporte
Yes, it could be Destroy Henry's Tesla. Yeah, we already did this, thank you.

1:16:02 - Benito Gonzalez
Prepares to hit. Yes, that's perfect. $10 for me to hit it with a sledgehammer.

1:16:06 - Jeff Jarvis
I would absolutely well, how much, how much, how much might it get now? So how many sledgehammers.

1:16:11 - Paris Martineau
Let's figure this out yeah, let's figure out how many sledgehammer hits it would take to fully destroy it and then I got a quote from carmax for 22 000.

1:16:21 - Leo Laporte
So but I don't know if that's good anymore. I'm gonna, because it's been a week or two and I think it's. I think it's plummeting. I sent Henry a note saying dude, help me sell this car, the price is plummeting. That's a lot of. I think it's quite a few A lot of happy people, though I know. I'll suggest it.

1:16:45 - Paris Martineau
I asked Chad GBD how many sledgehammer hits would it take to total a Tesla Model Y? And it wrote a novel. It wrote a thousand words. But it's thinking, it's reasoning and the answer is Well, it says there's a depends on a few variables.

1:17:01 - Leo Laporte
Depends on what counts as totaled. It depends on where you're hitting who's swimminging.

1:17:05 - Paris Martineau
Damage by section Totals A strong person could total a Model Y in 50 to 100 well-placed sledgehammer hits.

1:17:13 - Leo Laporte
If you're only smashing body parts randomly it might take several hundred to do an insurance total level damage Want a breakdown based on a specific scenario, like one person, one hour, hour, ten pound, sledgehammer and then and then there's a pop-up that chat gbt asks do you like this personally? Is this something you want? Are you violent? So here's perplexity. It would take 32 full force sledge hammer hits to cause significant structural damage. It's got steel plates in the cam and a cabinet mega castings. Look at this.

1:17:55 - Jeff Jarvis
I got a table yeah, see I couldn't charge enough. I'd have to charge like 500 a hit to really make I think I think you'd find people.

1:18:03 - Paris Martineau
I think it's not. I think that they're overestimating the strength of the person using the hedgehammer these are, these are girls I think that maybe if I give them just a little hammer wait a minute.

1:18:14 - Benito Gonzalez
Why am I giving you? True, we can do. Let's give them a baseball bat. Baseball bat, wooden baseball bat yeah, yeah, there you go baseball bat profit.

1:18:22 - Paris Martineau
Uh, yeah, that's profit profit.

1:18:25 - Leo Laporte
Okay, I'm gonna message henry if he agrees to it, we'll do it, we'll stream the whole thing.

1:18:31 - Jeff Jarvis
Probably the battery will go on fire and it'll be fun to watch we'll be great they can see us blow up live on air and you can charge locals more so they can do it themselves this could be the new version of the twit brick.

1:18:45 - Paris Martineau
You could take home a piece of henry's that you hit off yourself. Oh, that's right.

1:18:52 - Leo Laporte
Oh, or we could throw bricks and if you get a piece, you get to keep it. That's true, all good ideas. I thought it was interesting that harper uh said, yeah, eventually we won't have to work and then it'll be a universal basic income. Uh, apparently he's not alone with this idea. A? Uh, a company is being founded called mechanize uh, and it's the premise. This is this was founded by, according to TechCrunch famous AI researcher Tamei Besselroglu. The premise is the full automation of all work, not just some, but all work.

1:19:41 - Paris Martineau
I'm sorry. I laughed at Burke's comment in the Discord which which is unrelated, but is related to the tesla, and I have to say it now. He said in all caps I have tried to destroy a car with a sledgehammer. It is harder than you think.

1:19:54 - Leo Laporte
Yes, knuckle scars to prove it it's no, it's just like strangling a person. It's harder than you think. Very similar, I'm not claiming all right all right.

1:20:05 - Jeff Jarvis
Why did you try to destroy the car with this?

1:20:06 - Leo Laporte
that sounds like burke, oh, he used to work. I know why. He used to work with mark pauline, the world famous. Uh, was it with when you were doing it with the pauline?

1:20:18 - Paris Martineau
the world famous what? What line of work would lead to burke, destroying a car with a sledgehammer?

1:20:25 - Leo Laporte
mark pauline was the founder of an art project called survival research labs srl, and they would do uh scary this is a sick website no, no, he's great they would do. No, this guy's an artist they would do these incredible shows underneath the overpass in san francisco, in which fire-eating machines would destroy each other and it was completely unrelated to work.

1:20:52 - Paris Martineau
It was in high school.

1:20:54 - Jeff Jarvis
Oh, burke did used to work for mark did you get arrested, burke um he had consent okay, that sounds like a high school joe esposito used to smash cars in his dad's wrecking yard. Oh, this is Joe.

1:21:10 - Leo Laporte
Would know about this, Joe that's great, you could be our local expert. Yeah, come on down, help me out. Henry's going to kill me.

1:21:21 - Paris Martineau
You wanted to move to New York. Now we got to.

1:21:23 - Leo Laporte
Okay, we got to do something with this Model Y. Model Y with hammers wanted to move to new york.

1:21:26 - Paris Martineau
Now we gotta okay we gotta do something.

1:21:27 - Jeff Jarvis
It's also uh bad for your reputation to have it on the driveway, leo, so you gotta get it out. I know I keep waiting for somebody to spray paint it.

1:21:34 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, I'm just imagining henry trying to explain this to someone being like yeah, you know, I had to move to new york to open up my uh tiktok sandwich shop. So now my dad is live streaming people on the internet attacking my tesla with hammers. They're like oh, another day all right, let's take a little break.

1:21:52 - Leo Laporte
More ai news and other news still to come. Paris martineau is here. The wonderful paris martineau, you, I have you done something with your hair?

1:22:03 - Paris Martineau
I have a different light behind me that is reflecting kind of a red thing it looks good.

1:22:07 - Jeff Jarvis
It really looks good. I like it. It brings out the auburn it does.

1:22:12 - Paris Martineau
It's a. It's the light I normally use for my plants, but it is just in a good position you're gonna grow good I am.

1:22:18 - Leo Laporte
I'm getting taller.

1:22:19 - Jeff Jarvis
Good for people yeah, I say you know is taller than you thought.

1:22:23 - Paris Martineau
Yeah I'll be six one by the end of this podcast and I'm getting shorter, so there, uh, that is jeff jarvis.

1:22:32 - Leo Laporte
To her right, he is the professor emeritus of journalism, but also the author of fabulous books like the way we weave in the guttenberg parenthesis. And uh, suny stony brook, uh, are you going to be? Uh, teaching, have you found out yet? In the fall, or is that not?

1:22:48 - Jeff Jarvis
uh, no, somebody else is going to teach the core. I'll probably be lecturing the course, but it's nice, the course I wrote. I was gonna say this with harper uh, in ai and creativity. Uh, the dean told me that it was the most popular sign up yet in the term.

1:23:01 - Leo Laporte
I think this is a future, jeff, this is absolutely the future, and I think I really liked harper's attitude which is hey, we don't know, but it's but, play with it, experiment with it. Yeah, there's something going on. I mean, we all, even you, paris, a skeptic, I have to say there's something going on, right yeah, no, I will say that.

1:23:20 - Paris Martineau
Uh, that conversation with harper made me want to design a. See if I can design a video game.

1:23:25 - Leo Laporte
See and play around with it, get to know your local AI.

1:23:29 - Jeff Jarvis
Here's the question I have Once it codes it, how do you make it executable and where do you put it? It codes an executable.

1:23:36 - Leo Laporte
Well, it depends what you have it right in.

1:23:37 - Paris Martineau
If it's in Python, I understand coding, but my knowledge of coding is so little that I don't.

1:23:44 - Leo Laporte
I can't even comprehend any of it. You're better off.

1:23:47 - Jeff Jarvis
Well, where do you host the game is what I'm trying to ask People can download it and play it.

1:23:53 - Leo Laporte
Well, you have to tell it if you want it to be a web-based game. It could do that. You tell it how you want to deliver it, how to want to package it. All right, can you help me build a game? Build a game. It's very slow.

1:24:07 - AI
Absolutely. What kind of game do you want to build? Do you have a specific concept or idea in mind, such as the genre, gameplay mechanics or platform? Let me know what you're thinking and.

1:24:16 - Paris Martineau
I can help you get started. Flappy Bird with Jeff Jarvis' face.

1:24:19 - Leo Laporte
I want to do a Flappy Bird clone, but instead of a bird I want it to be a flying journalist, professor with white hair that sounds like a fun and creative twist here's a basic outline to get you started on your flappy bird clone featuring a flying journalist professor.

1:24:39 - AI
One game design concept character instead of a bird you'll have a flying journalist professor. Consider what costume or gear, like glasses, a notepad or a pen this character might have to enhance the theme. Obstacles you could use various obstacles based on journalism, like stacks of newspapers, camera tripods or even giant pencils. Two Game mechanics Controls Players tap the screen or press a key to make the character flap rise. Release to let gravity pull them down. Scoring Players earn points by passing through gaps between obstacles. Power-ups Consider adding items like scoops that give extra points or temporary invincibility. You got a scoop Development tools.

Game engine. You can use engines like Unity or Godot for this type of 2D game. Both have strong communities and lots of resources for beginners. Assets.

1:25:31 - Leo Laporte
You'll need spreads for your character, obstacles and backgrounds you can create your own or find free resources online.

1:25:37 - AI
Four basic game loop Create the main game screen. Implement character controls and physics.

1:25:43 - Leo Laporte
Gravity, just do it. Well, it's giving me an outline of the things I need to solve. I can't figure out how to shut it down.

1:25:49 - Benito Gonzalez
You need that transcript and then you need to keep that oh no, I have the transcript.

1:25:53 - Leo Laporte
That's fine, thank you very much.

1:25:54 - Paris Martineau
Bye, yeah, you just wasted how many millions of dollars I burned a forest for that baby just saying please and thank you cost them millions of dollars.

1:26:05 - Jeff Jarvis
Isn't that hysterical? We?

1:26:06 - Leo Laporte
talked about that last week, didn't we? Or? On twit on twit. That's why paris was there. She remembers it. Yeah, sam altman said that every time you say please and thank you, he uses more cpu cycle, obviously because that's the thing of a response, and he says it was costing us tens of millions of dollars in aggregate. Thank you, sam. A new way to ruin your life. All right, we're gonna take a break, we gotta wait, wait, wait, wait.

1:26:29 - Jeff Jarvis
No, I've got it. It's a game where you're smashing the tesla. You're gonna be rich rich.

1:26:37 - Benito Gonzalez
I tell you, actually, that would probably do very well well, they'll sue you if you use the tesla ip in the game.

1:26:43 - Leo Laporte
You're not gonna get we don't call it a tesla, then you just call it a not going to get we don't call it a tesla, we just call it a.

1:26:46 - Benito Gonzalez
It's not going to sell, because that's the selling point we call it a cyber plunk I'll release it anonymously.

1:26:53 - All
Let's erase the last 10 minutes this episode of intelligent machines is brought to you by vibes today, silly vibes brought to you by story block.

1:27:08 - Leo Laporte
Uh, let's talk about you've all. You both worked, I'm sure, with legacy content management systems. Cms's oh, they can be so painful. Yeah, they promise enterprise-grade features, but they're slow, clunky and, of course, the smallest change, smallest update, you got to get a developer involved. And when you're trying to move fast, that's the last thing you want to do. Well, storyblock is brand new and it changes all of that, unlike those kind of monolithic, inflexible CMSs.

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Storyblock is api first, and this is such a great way to do it. Your content loads fast anywhere in the world. It means better ux design, higher engagement, improved SEO and, with their real-time visual editor, marketers see exactly what the content will look like before publishing. No more endless back and forth over minor tweaks. You can move something, change a color, do it all yourself and you'll see immediately what it looks like. Developers get fewer interruptions. Marketers get more autonomy. It's a win-all route.

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1:30:24 - Jeff Jarvis
Intelligent Machines. Will you indulge me a quick CMS story. Oh.

1:30:28 - Leo Laporte
God.

1:30:29 - Jeff Jarvis
Wait.

1:30:29 - Paris Martineau
I bet A brief aside first, and then this I asked ChadGPT to make me a flappy bird with Jeff's face. It required some troubleshooting. It ostensibly works, but I don't know what the controls are, so every time I open it, it's just a photo of Jeff's face that immediately falls to the ground and then says game over, and I do think it says something about what's going on.

1:30:50 - Benito Gonzalez
You need to prompt it. Just tell it what you want the controls to be. Do we have a screenshot?

1:30:55 - Paris Martineau
I will Hold on a second. Tell your CMS story. I just asked ChatGPT generate code for simple Flappy Bird-like game, but with this man's face as the bird it's kind of mind-boggling, isn't it? On, I'll I'll uh ask it to do the controls if you want to tell your cms story and then we will put it up on uh on our discord for our club members yay, yeah, what a benefit you make membership does jeff I don't know how to jeff's arms? Flap or what I mean.

1:31:24 - Leo Laporte
We'll find out okay so cms's are notoriously troubling, especially the old school ones so I go way, way, way back with this.

1:31:35 - Jeff Jarvis
My first newsroom system was 1974 kids and when I started entertainment weekly I didn't like the computer department and my wife is brilliant, and so we set up the first major all macintosh uh system, nice, uh, and I, it's part of my line of type book, believe it or not, because it's kind of the end of the line of type story is what is desktop publishing? So this she went to to the seabold conference and presented oh yeah, work right, all these things oh, that's so cool right, so we had no management system.

Oh, that changed the weight balance. What?

1:32:09 - Leo Laporte
what, what is? What does your wife do you know?

1:32:12 - Jeff Jarvis
she talked about her she trained um, so she was a special ed teacher, right, and then she went to work at time inc. That's where we met and she trained all of the editors and uh correspondents on uh computers. So this is, this was her thing. Oh yeah, that's what she did. Well, that's cool. We met and her department hated me and and, and so we went to it. Why?

1:32:35 - Leo Laporte
did they hate?

1:32:36 - Jeff Jarvis
you just said it because I, because I was constantly fighting them for the system they wanted, and then uh, but then I got my revenge. A because I married her and we took her away from that department and b because when we started ew she and we've been talking about lately because I've been writing this up it was audacious in ways we didn't know. It was the very beginning days.

1:32:57 - Leo Laporte
Quark was brand new oh yeah, that was the page. That was the, the desktop publishing app, but here's the cms.

1:33:03 - Jeff Jarvis
Part of it is that there was no content management system right so no way to interface to it and we had had servers with content on it, but there's no way to manage it, so we invented what we called the conch system. It was a physical manila folder that had the name of the story on it, and unless you had the conch, you couldn't speak, you couldn't edit it. Oh, that's cool. That's how we did it, so. So this has all been memory lane for me. The computer history museum in 2017 did a phenomenal multi day, all recorded. Pioneers of desktop desktop publishing Wow, I watched all 12 hours of it. It is, if it's, it's, it's it's. It's it online somewhere? Yes, it is. It's all online on youtube. Computer history museum uh. Pioneers of um desktop publishing yeah, desktop publishing. And.

1:33:55 - Leo Laporte
And they have all kinds of other material up and it's just wonderful the reason you needed the conch and this is historically a difficult challenge is if two people are working on the same file, it it really becomes a problem because they can make different changes and which one should they keep, and so forth. So they, so it was a clever way to say you, only you, can touch this file right now, and then you hand the conch, the little shell off, which people use in real real life during round round table discussions and things did you know of see jonathan seabolt and Seabolt seminars?

1:34:26 - Jeff Jarvis
Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm going to talk to Jonathan soon. So she was invited to go present this because it saved us $3 million a year with the computer department at that time.

1:34:37 - Leo Laporte
We still have that problem. We had an intern design, a sales system for us, and only one person could be in it at a time. So Lisa has to go out onto our slack saying everybody off the sales she was the conch. We gotta get a conch. That's what we need.

1:34:54 - Paris Martineau
A conch, a flappy bird game is a bust guys oh no it.

I can't get it part of the. You guys know how flappy bird works. The bird starts, you gotta click for it to go through. There's something about the bird is like too heavy and the amount it jumps when you click is either too little or too much. To where I've finally gotten it by asking it some very rudimentary questions, to where I can kind of click to make the bird flap, but it just shoots off the screen either way and it's too hard to control.

1:35:25 - Leo Laporte
It turns out designing a game is harder than writing it's a very accurate flappy bird, actually flappy jeff, ah, and we have we have pretty fly, for a psy guy has, or cis guy has, created a box cover for flappy bird flappy jeff, I think we're gonna call it it and we're ready, we're ready, I'm ready.

I think that this is a good project for you, paris to take what you've learned from Harper Reed and all of these conversations and to work on this through the night until you get a Flappy Jeff I'm going to make.

1:35:59 - Paris Martineau
Maybe I will.

1:36:00 - Benito Gonzalez
Yeah, I mean they'll give you an appreciation of how many details there actually are to creating a game Like there are a lot of things you have to think. All that yeah. You have to figure out how much you want it to flap when you press the thing and how much or how little all that stuff?

1:36:12 - Leo Laporte
I've written a few games. I wrote a snake game, a Sotoku solver. I've written a tic-tac-toe.

1:36:18 - Paris Martineau
Do you only write games that begin with S?

1:36:28 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I guess t, s, and then I got to the t in the alphabet and next I'm gonna write yeah, something called ulysses. Okay, I think we're now to the rest of the story and now the rest now the story. The rest, oh you know that do you know? You know him I know him paul harvey, and now page two um I'll see you on the radio.

I'll see you, I'm. I'm gonna tell you the story about my friend who met paul harvey. He was in chicago paul used to work at I can't remember what was it, wsj or whatever. It was in chicago and he was in Chicago. He got in the elevator and there's Paul Harvey standing there. Everybody knows Paul Harvey, world famous newscaster. They go up in the elevator. He gets to his floor, starts to get out. Paul Harvey says goodbye, American, it must be nice to know you're. You know you're, you're, you're recognized. Your catch line, catch line is going to be recognized. Welcome to Slop World. How the hostile internet is driving us crazy.

From the Financial Times, the last. This is a good illustration. The last bits of fellowship and ingenuity on the web are being swept away by a tide of so-called self no, not self, artificial intelligence From Kierkegaard's journals. In 1843, suppose someone invented an instrument, a convenient little talking tube which, say, could be heard all over the land. Land, I wonder, if the police would not forbid it filling the whole country would become mentally deranged if it was used. Kierkegaard's talking tube. It's famous. No, it's not. Um well, I presume you put this in, jeff. This feels like a very Jeff.

1:38:27 - Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, it's very essay, ish, um, but it's, it's. It does speak to the problem of the web. Now, right, it's, it's being filled up with slop of all sorts, and not just computer generated slop and slop slop. I think it's important.

1:38:41 - Paris Martineau
You're calling flappy Jeff slop. It's a game that doesn't work at all.

1:38:48 - Leo Laporte
I'm surprised you say that, jeff, because you have so long defended the internet.

1:38:50 - Jeff Jarvis
I do defend the internet.

1:38:51 - Paris Martineau
I want to defend it from slop it is full of slop now, that's true but a lot of that slop is output by plain old human beings.

1:38:59 - Leo Laporte
I mean, it's not all AI slop, by any means so it has this nice uh analog in here metaphor.

1:39:07 - Jeff Jarvis
The hostile internet has a meat space analog in new york city's moynihan train hall, which you'll see when you're in new york, a 1.6 billion 486 000 square foot station unveiled in 2021. The building was supposed to be an homage to the original, much mourned penn station, but on a human level, the new facility is a disaster, like so many other places designed by the principles of hostile architecture. There's almost nowhere to sit, lest a homeless person might find a place to take a nap.

There are plenty of places to shop and spend money, along with the requisite phalanx of surveillance cameras. Enormous high-resolution screens circle the main atrium broadcasting constant ads. Train times are displayed on smaller screens strewn around the building, Like the Moynihan train hall. Today's internet isn't really designed for us, but rather to elicit certain responses from us, Responses which, to put it loftily, are hostile to human flourishing. I think that's going a little far, but I think that it has been taken over by, as it says here, a witch's brew.

1:40:11 - Leo Laporte
I would say, though, that the response to that is it is up to all of us to maintain our mental health by tuning out the stuff that we feel is causing those problems. Uh, I, you know, I don't go to xcom anymore, I don't go to Instagram. I mean, I think that that's Are you saying people are unable to tune that stuff out or to turn that stuff off? Well, it's harder to. Newton Minow said that about TV it's a vast wasteland. Okay, well, just turn it off.

1:40:39 - Jeff Jarvis
And I make his daughter mad every time I make fun of it.

1:40:42 - Paris Martineau
TV. In this case, the stuff is at least being made by humans and pitched to someone who agreed it had some value of some kind whether or not that's traditional value or just could be something to consume and brain rot, I think what Jeff is talking about. One example of this I mean you just said you're not on Twitter anymore, which is a good choice, but I'm sure this happens on other sites, but I've most recently noticed it in Twitter. You'll go and look at a post and the replies are all clearly like accounts using chatbots to reply. They all use kind of the same phrasing or have the same formatted answers. And then you go to that profiles page and they've produced like 200 of those types of replies on different people's tweets. Like that day it's. It's just there's slop everywhere. It's just making the internet more noisy in a way that is frustrating reading again.

1:41:40 - Jeff Jarvis
The scholar John Durham Peters made the connection explicitly in his 2010 paper broadcasting and schizophrenia. What was once mad or uncanny is now routine hearing disembodied voices and speaking to nobody in particular, he wrote. Prodded by slacking bosses, tempted by instagram ads, trolled, provoked by inflammatory content served up by recommendation systems tuned to do just that, we can become our own worst selves online, or some other self, entirely surrendering to the libidinal forces of algorithmic mass media yeah, but I mean, uh weren't news groups pretty full of crap even?

and the newspapers were. Yeah, newspapers were.

1:42:19 - PC
That was the whole point of mass media became full of crap.

1:42:22 - Leo Laporte
I know I'm not agreeing with it, but I thought it was provocative it is provocative and it feels like the same old moral panic bs that people have been saying forever.

1:42:36 - Paris Martineau
President, more oh I like that one, guys, when are we going to get a sand, a sand, uh reference a sand sand reference.

1:42:45 - Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, yeah, we need to get, we, we gotta get a sand button going on this is look at.

1:42:49 - Leo Laporte
This is just some old person who doesn't like the way the modern world has turned out, and you guys ought to turn down your music and cut your hair I think that there are real examples of this, for instance, um dropout tv, the subscription network I often plug because I like their shows.

1:43:06 - Paris Martineau
They have one show that I don't watch that often, but I'm aware of it. It's called the Smarty Pants Society. It's kind of like a PowerPoint party presentation, but with comedians doing different bits, and there was a controversy recently because people online found that one of the PowerPoints someone presented used a bunch of AI-generated art, and typically the company is against that. Someone presented used a bunch of AI generated art and typically the company's against that, and they'd issue a statement being like listen, we do have a very strong sense against using AI generated art. We bought these photos from like Getty or some some subscription service we use, thinking they were real, but we were tricked into using fake images basically, and that's a problem when people can't tell from what's fake and real. I think that that's an issue.

1:43:47 - Leo Laporte
Photoshop you know. So the pew research center, which I mean we like pew right, uh, we trust their surveys, but pew yeah pew, p-e-w. They do a lot of surveys. Trying to understand that was a little little view of 15 year old paris there I'm.

1:44:05 - Paris Martineau
I don't know what the energy is today, but it's kind of it's changing me somehow.

1:44:10 - Leo Laporte
They did a survey of teens age 13 to 17. They found their parents are generally more worried than their children about the mental health of teenagers today. Both groups call out social media impact on young people's wellbeing. Parents are much more likely to make this collection. Uh, 48 of teens say uh, social sites have a mostly negative uh. Oh. Now pew is asking me some questions slop, it's all slop stop.

I'm trying to read your goddamn story out loud. Thank you, Pew, Give me credit for it. Roughly half of teens 48% say these sites have a mostly negative effect on people their age. But and this is most important only 14% think they negatively affect them personally. It's those other people it's affecting Very much like this story personally. It's those other people it's affecting very much like this story. By the way, one in five say social media sites hurt their mental health, but most teens say it makes them feel more connected to their friends, like 80 which they've been saying for quite a while now yeah, um, more teens say they spend too much time than before.

It was 36 percent. In 2022. Now 45 percent of teens say they spend too much time on social media, not half almost half. Uh, teen girls are more likely than boys to say social media hurt their mental health, but it's still 25 percent versus 14. Confidence 20 versus 10. Girls versus boys 50 of the girls say social media has hurt their sleep, 40 of the boys. I think social media has hurt my sleep. I've I've made a conscious effort to stop. If I'm tossing and turning at three in the morning, uh, reaching over for my phone, I don't I just toss, and even I wouldn't do that I did that for a long time.

That's why I bought all those stupid things on instagram, like this fine koala screen cleaner and microfiber cloth made in america. That was an instagram purchase. A majority of teens see social media as a positive space for friendships and creativity. 74 percent of teens say social media makes them feel more connected to their friends. 63% say it gives them a place to show off their creative side. It's the parents that are worried. 80% of parents say they're extremely or very comfortable talking to their teens about their teen's mental health, but only 52 percent of teens do. 34 percent of teens say they get, at least sometimes get, information about mental health and social media. I think these this is a really useful kind of. It's not as bad as the parents think. It is kind of a result. Yeah because?

1:47:02 - Jeff Jarvis
because the parents are in a moral panic.

1:47:05 - Leo Laporte
Because the parents are in a moral panic. Yeah, and I feel like that financial More AI swap.

1:47:15 - Benito Gonzalez
You made me burn like three new ones already.

1:47:18 - Leo Laporte
You're all incredible.

1:47:20 - Jeff Jarvis
You can use them again and again, they're life-changing, benita. There's favorites yeah.

1:47:25 - Paris Martineau
That one's a top one for me because of the really jarring peel sound of leo being peeled from the screen.

1:47:33 - Leo Laporte
It we, I. This is a show. You better watch the video, I guess, because, uh, we can describe it. Uh, it's, it looks like it's me, but then the hand reaches in and pulls this one.

1:47:43 - Paris Martineau
You have to put that up on social two big cartoony three-dimensional fingers come in and peel lego from the screen is that are those all from anthony nielsen?

1:47:58 - Leo Laporte
anthony is our ai genius. In fact, if you want to know how he makes those, you should definitely tune in friday at 1 pm, pacific, for our monthly ai user group meeting. Anthony's going to explain a little bit about how he does, uh, these wonderful things. Yeah, he's very good at this. Uh, I will be there, unless I'm forced to sell my son's model y at that time. Uh, pick some. These are good. There's a lot of good stories in here.

1:48:27 - Jeff Jarvis
Uh, thank you for I know, the one I, the one I really like is um, what, uh, where to go here? Where to go? Where to go? Where to go?

1:48:35 - Leo Laporte
okay, a caggle, caggle wikipedia, so we've mentioned this.

1:48:39 - Jeff Jarvis
A couple of weeks ago, the wikipedia was getting swamped by ai bots scraping its content and if they were like a big old media company, their response would be to complain and sue and get publicity. But instead Wikipedia did what Leo.

1:48:53 - Leo Laporte
They went to Kaggle, which is a very well-known data scientist site. Kaggle's used data scientists go there to test their abilities and so forth, and they have many, many data sets, data sets 461 000 freely accessible data sets that ais, among other things, can use researchers use uh students use to train to learn.

1:49:16 - Jeff Jarvis
So don't scrape our site, just go there and download it. Yeah, kaggle is hosting.

1:49:20 - Leo Laporte
That's what everybody should do a beta release of wiki medias and wikipedia's entire data in both french and english. Uh, go there, get it from kaggle. Kaggle can support it. It's formatted for machine learning. Uh, great idea brilliant, isn't it?

I love that yeah, and it looks like google helped them, because this is from the google keyword blog, so I'm guessing Google's providing some bandwidth or something like that. You know, this is how these AI companies have got to respond. They've got to be, you know, caring participants in this, because you're going to end up killing all the data resources that you need to make better AIs, so I think that's good. I'm not so hoppy about the administration's plans to cram AI into k through 12 schools sorry, don't you mean a1 a1.

Yes, I mean a1. It's under consideration and you know we haven't seen the. It was called pre-decisional. Pre-decisional, in other words, we haven't told donald about it and we're hoping he's going to go for it and take the sharpie to it. Under the draft executive order, federal agencies would be instructed to take steps to train students in using ai and incorporate it into teaching related tasks.

1:50:39 - Jeff Jarvis
I'm not against this, but this is exactly what you had a department of education for yeah, exactly, and you don't do it with a sharpie, saying we poured the sauce over and now it's in the classroom. This requires thought and you need experts.

1:50:51 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, you need experts in this field to help you do this, instead of just saying well, David Sachs told us it was a good idea, so we're going to do it Right.

1:51:07 - Jeff Jarvis
And my district here, you know well-to-do is is firing 30 people because of the budget problems, and you know what's going to happen. They say well, you got ai. Now it's okay, you just use the ai, we'll give you another 10 students. You got the ai, it'll be okay.

1:51:13 - Leo Laporte
Yeah I mean, it's probably you know a. I've seen some evidence that ai can make a pretty good tutor, um, that kids can learn from ai tutors, but I think it has to be done intelligently, carefully and slowly. I don't think you need to rush it in or jam it in, and I have a feeling that's what this will end up doing.

1:51:31 - Jeff Jarvis
So, yep, well, welcome to the new world so leo, I have an idea for a new service that you could provide. Yeah, your hosts and perhaps your guests and others. Yes is perhaps you could be a verification so I saw this thing so this is on the skeet, on the blue ski.

1:51:56 - Leo Laporte
I want to just call it the ski. Can I just call it the ski? Blue sky is adding blue check marks, but they're doing it, I think, in the right way. They're not. They're not just kind of give us eight dollars, you got a check mark. In fact, I still don't have a check mark. You never got one on blue sky. No, on Twitter. Oh, oh no, I've had one on Twitter.

I thought, okay what uh Cory Doctorow calls a non-consensual blue check. They just gave it to me. Actually it's been good because it gives me full access to grok so I can play with grok a little bit. No, I'm saying on blue sky, I don't the thing about blue sky that I I think it doesn't really need this because I self-verify which they say they make a point of that, saying that's their primary means of verification.

1:52:38 - Jeff Jarvis
Okay, good is that you use your uh domain, which you long ago argued was the benefit um, a lot of people can't do it.

1:52:45 - Leo Laporte
I understand. I mean it takes a little dns foo and so forth. Plus, you have to own a domain. I have a domain I wasn't using called leo laporte dot me, so when you go to my blue sky you'll see it's at leo laporte dot me and, and I guess the theory is that people might want to, you know, actually go to that website when you, when you added that, when you changed to that, did you lose anything?

no, no, okay, no, I just gotta do it. And then what it will take you to is what I consider a proof of identity first of all, that it's there, it's hosted on fast mail and it's signed by my pgp private or, yeah, private key, so which you can validate with my public key, which is publicly available. So I, I mean, I consider that a pretty rock solid proof.

Plus it then links to your about page which then tells you more about me and has a qr code you can scan if that points back to blue sky and so forth.

1:53:39 - Paris Martineau
So jeff, the thing that I think is, uh, particularly useful for you. So when I set up mine mine, my blue sky is parisnyc. This was before they'd rolled out this particular feature. But now, um, if you set up a custom url, it will save your current blue sky handle, jeffjarvisblueskysocial, so that no one could do that like I have to have a I have a second blue sky account that. That's just my old handles that nobody could camp that, but because it's only because I was an early member of blue sky and set up a custom custom URL in like 2023.

1:54:15 - Leo Laporte
But you have to know how to do that, and I understand that 90% of users are this kind of thing. Aren't going to know how to do that, right?

1:54:21 - Paris Martineau
That's fine. So, what is?

1:54:23 - Leo Laporte
the mechanism? Now You're saying that I, as an organization, tw. That's fine. So what is the mechanism? Now you're saying that I, as an organization, twit as an organization. Could they will approve some um approvers yes, oh well, some I'm doubt I'm gonna get in. No, I think. I think it'd be perfect, I think it'd be. Washington post might get in the sum.

1:54:38 - All
No, I think twit and its whole network well I'd be glad to be a good, so what?

1:54:44 - Leo Laporte
what do I have to apply to? Uh, yeah, I think there's something like that there. Okay, well, I'll look into it um, yeah, well, I wouldn't I mean so then there would be some patrick would probably have to do it right, sorry, patrick, could be some sort of mechanism that we would.

Well, then you could uh, I guess, as part of the um whole tesla scam, you could uh be like you could charge people for yes, so actually I realized the thing is that you sell the sledgehammers, you sell the ability to hit the thing and then, if you want to pay a little extra, you can get a blue check that's great, yeah, yeah, make sure let's scrub this part of the video too, so that's oh yeah uh, yes, we don't want to get in trouble.

1:55:28 - Jeff Jarvis
We can't have blue sky hearing about this anybody um, I didn't know, the 4chan was dead, yeah yeah, that's actually crazy yeah it's dead but there are plenty of other replacements.

1:55:42 - Paris Martineau
There was a time in my life where I'd have to check fortune every night to see what the people were up to. That's how I discovered q anon.

1:55:49 - Leo Laporte
I'm sorry was that as in your role as a reporter, or?

1:55:52 - Paris Martineau
that was, uh. That was when I was at new york magazine wow, what a horrible assignment I mean it wasn't an assignment. I chose to do it because I was like people are going to want to read about what the freaks on fortune are doing. I did one good article about how uh people on 4chan were consuming raw onions because they thought it made them more manly increase their testosterone well, it guarantees they're not going to get a date that's.

1:56:18 - Jeff Jarvis
That's a way to do it well, that's maybe their goal, to actually but now you can't even do that.

1:56:24 - Leo Laporte
Oh, you don't let you eat onions anymore. Because I eat onions. Wow, okay, okay, okay. What was I? I had some thought about blue sky. Oh, this is my biggest kind of thing that I would love to see solved. There isn't really anywhere a centralized way to say I am who, I say I am. There used to be a wonderful site called keybase. Uh, keybaseorg. It's still around, but they were bought by zoom and I'm not sure it really does what it used to do oh, is that why keybase stopped working for me?

that would make sense we need something like that, do you? Don't you agree? So what I did? With keybases. You would go there and isn't this the orb?

1:57:14 - Paris Martineau
isn't this what the orb is?

1:57:15 - Leo Laporte
I guess it is what the orb is.

1:57:18 - Paris Martineau
I mean he's trying to solve that problem and it does.

1:57:21 - Leo Laporte
I don't know if it should be with biometrics, though. The idea of keybase was you could use dns to prove you are, because you'd have a website that you controlled maybe your parisnyc site and you could use dns to post a little text string in there that would say, see, I am paris, I control this site, and then keybase would say, yep, that's her site, and then you could continue to do that. You may have seen in the back of the day people posting tweets or messages on Facebook that said this is my Keybase verification, and there's a long string, and the fact that you could post that under your name would then associate it with your Keybase account. We need some way that's easier than that of people saying, yeah, I'm Leo and these are my sites and you can trust that, and then we wouldn't have to have blue skies check marks or xboxes, xcom's check, check marks right, do we? Do you think we need something like that, or is that I mean?

1:58:17 - Paris Martineau
I think the, I think the use of a check mark is just. It gives um, people, casual users of a social network, a easy like, easily, look, it's something you just look at at a glance and you're like, yeah, this person has some credibility, and I do think that that serves a purpose. I think that it has. I'm not sure that check marks are the way to do that anymore. I'm unsure. I'm genuinely unsure whether it's useful or not useful, because the idea of the check mark has been so diluted over the last couple of years and the fact that on meta products, but also on x.

1:58:55 - All
You can just pay for it, ruined it, yeah yeah and we knew there was a time where it meant it anyway.

1:59:00 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, well, I think this would be a very good. Blue sky could even be that validator, right, you see the blue check there, and then in the sidebar here's all the other sites that belong to me, and Blue Sky has made the effort to validate that. That's all real. Mastodon does that with, I think, a fairly effective mechanism, but it's not easy to use, and that's the real problem. We need an easier way to do that. The problem also is that people would then say, well, that's kind of a national identity database. Do you really want the government to have something like that, which I don't actually. So I've just learned, by the way I'm sorry, I'm a little distracted that Henry is going to a chef's dinner with Martha Stewart tonight?

I don't know if it's a date.

1:59:47 - Jeff Jarvis
I hope it's not. You know the next thing that my wife did after we left Entertainment Weekly because I walked out in the huff and she kind of had to go to is she took the Mac network and set it up for Martha Stewart Living. Nice, she got a jar of jam.

2:00:03 - Leo Laporte
It's a good thing. Did she really get a jar of jam? Oh yeah, I hope they paid her as well.

2:00:09 - Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, they did. Oh, I think it might have been strawberry good jam flavor did martha make it.

2:00:14 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I'm sure I watch her things and I wonder did she really get down on her knees in the garden or did she do that for the camera, then get up and get a guy named jesus to do it? I feel like it's the latter, I'm just saying, but I don't know. Probably, yeah, she loves to garden. Uh yeah, 4chan is dead. Americans this is depressing. This adds to your uh, your financial times article. Americans averaged over 700 in tiktok purchases in the last year how much did you alone added that up, didn't you?

2:00:47 - Jeff Jarvis
I think I easily.

2:00:50 - Leo Laporte
How much?

2:00:50 - Paris Martineau
do you think Can you show us Go through TikTok shop? What have you bought from there?

2:00:54 - Leo Laporte
I've never purchased anything on TikTok, so I think I got the plod note there. That was the AI recorder.

2:01:00 - Jeff Jarvis
I bought Momofuku noodles, which was a mistake.

2:01:02 - Leo Laporte
I bought Momofuku noodles, but see the problem is.

2:01:04 - Jeff Jarvis
I don't know if it was for me.

2:01:05 - Harper Reed
You bought stuff through.

2:01:06 - Leo Laporte
TikTok shop. That's the only thing I bought. I don't know if it was Instagram or TikTok.

2:01:12 - Paris Martineau
Wow, maybe I'm a boomer.

2:01:18 - Leo Laporte
You're the boomer, I'm the boomer.

2:01:20 - Paris Martineau
Now I'm the one being like it seems sketchy to order stuff off TikTok Whenever I accidentally swipe over to that tick tock shop thing.

2:01:33 - Leo Laporte
I like throw my phone away. I'm like, oh, it's just such an aggressive part of the app to be on. It's way too much. I and I got rid of my tick tock, by the way, I don't do tick tock anymore either whoa yeah, oh man curmudgeon.

So I I've been watching a uh, I thought a very interesting a documentary on netflix called buy now, uh, which out last year, but I didn't see it. It is very depressing. It's people who worked at Amazon in the UX design, people who worked at Adidas In fact, the chief marketer at Adidas confessing all the things they did to get you to buy more crap and really they're saying it's not your fault that there's something like 18 billion running shoes made every year. It's not your fault that 13 million phones are thrown out every day. 13 million phones are thrown out every day. 13 million phones are thrown out every day. This, that, the, that, the. We have created this monster of e-commerce and made it so easy to buy, but nobody considers what's at the other end of all these purchases. It is a little bit depressing, but it's maybe going to help me kind of cut back on my oh, wait a minute my new mixer just came Hold on.

I don't know I shouldn't $700 in TikTok shop purchases.

2:02:58 - Paris Martineau
That's crazy. So how does nearly half of them?

2:03:03 - Benito Gonzalez
how does that mechanism work? Is this your credit card saved with them, or do you have to pull that out every time, or what?

2:03:08 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I don't know. I don't remember how it works. I think they know who you are.

2:03:12 - Jeff Jarvis
Well, when I start filling one in, google fills it in for me.

2:03:15 - Leo Laporte
Ah, Nearly half of the purchases on TikTok shops are due to influencers. Of course, because that's what you see. You see a video that's our new guy saying hey, I can't believe this thing. I just found it. It's amazing, it's transformed my life and I I, I don't know how I live with that. Oh, I did buy gum on tick tock what.

2:03:35 - Jeff Jarvis
That's where I got that gum oh, here's solar lights for your patio you can put in.

2:03:40 - Paris Martineau
That's nice that's the most dad thing I've ever seen by getting a tiktok?

2:03:45 - Leo Laporte
no, him buying solar lights for his patio I'm not buying them, I'm just saying, that's 37 of americans under 60, which means you, paris, have purchased something on tiktok shop averaging 59, a purchase. Only one in three amer Americans under the age of 60, but they, but those one in three, are working hard. They averaged 12 purchases in the last year.

2:04:14 - Benito Gonzalez
That's amazing yeah, I think I feel like this is more of a Wales problem than an average American. It's.

2:04:19 - Leo Laporte
Wales.

2:04:20 - Jeff Jarvis
Oh yeah, big, the big spenders yeah, the ABC for the new age, yeah most popular purchases.

2:04:27 - Leo Laporte
This is from partner centric affiliate marketing resources 46 personal accessories, 43. Patio solar lights 40 fashion items.

2:04:37 - Paris Martineau
That's old people for sure no, that was, that was a joke no well a household items no, no, absolutely my mom buys those all day.

2:04:47 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, makeup cosmetics 33, 27 technology. Now this is interesting. Only less than a quarter found the item by browsing the tick tock shop most of the time. I think they saw a video as they were scrolling through their tick tock and they went oh, oh, I got to buy that. Why do consumers use TikTok shop? 50% say easy to purchase. 50% say low price. 39% say the item was on sale. They're always on sale. By the way, nearly one in four say they make impulse purchases. Top regrets 17% the item was cheap. Quality Okay, there, this um wine cork remover. This guy was really.

2:05:30 - Paris Martineau
He made it look good. He made it look really good. Do you own, leo?

2:05:36 - Leo Laporte
a few. Most of them are standard. You know they're ahsos or the corkscrews, that kind of thing. But this guy, he was Australian. He came up, you can find it on Tick Tock and he comes up. He's very suave. Came up, you can find it on TikTok and he comes up. He's very suave, comes up at the table, says let me open that for you. Goes just like pumping it up. Thing comes out, there you go and he pours it on. It's just that easy. So I bought it. It was the crappiest. I thought I was going to great Christmas gift. I couldn't. I threw it out. Have you bought any bell and howl laser lights.

2:06:15 - Jeff Jarvis
Of course they've licensed the name bell and howl because there is no bell and howl anymore. Who's that? What's that? At least 20. Yes, it was an old. It was an old camera brand you ever heard of Packard Bell Parish? Long defunct and it's a resurrected brand. And then they put this crap out on tv.

2:06:27 - Leo Laporte
It's mainly tv uh, 23 regret at least one purchase from the tiktok shop. Wow, um, really that was bad. That was bad. 63 of americans take advice or suggestions from influencers and there's your problem yeah, that's it only take suggestions or advice from leo yes, I'm not an influencer, I just play one on tv. Where, who did I? Who did I? I was talking to somebody who said did you see this study that said something like 57 percent of teenagers want to be an influencer when they grow up I'm shocked that isn't higher jobs.

2:07:09 - Benito Gonzalez
That's all you got uh, no, it's just the new.

2:07:11 - Jeff Jarvis
I want to be famous yeah, yeah, yeah it is, but it is rich and rich at the same time.

2:07:17 - Paris Martineau
Rich and famous, yeah, and get a bunch of free stuff no, they assume that it comes with famous.

2:07:21 - Benito Gonzalez
That's the problem. They assume rich comes with famous yeah, you're right, this is uh.

2:07:24 - Leo Laporte
I don't know if this is valuable. It was research done by the influence index, the influence index. This is from uh, australia presented by the oz I think it's australia mysterious newscomau. Half of all australian gen z girls would quit school or their job to become an influencer if they could 73% follow, yeah, who wouldn't?

2:07:54 - Paris Martineau
Would you quit your job if? You could get a bunch of free stuff and get paid for making little short-term videos.

2:07:58 - Leo Laporte
My son, who is absolutely in that category of influencer right, If he's having dinner with Martha Stewart, I think so it's killing him.

2:08:07 - Paris Martineau
it's hard damn work well, I mean, it's hard because you can't really take a break like you don't write.

2:08:13 - Leo Laporte
People don't understand that. They think, oh, it's fun, you're just making little videos. You get to try and close a lot of work also there's the parents who are ripping off their influencer kids, which is another problem yeah, well, it's like child stars in the day.

2:08:31 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, there's a couple of interesting laws in states a couple in the midwest actually, if I'm recalling correctly that require that parents don't just spend all of the money their kids earn, that if their kid is being an influencer they have to have control of at least some of the money california.

2:08:50 - Leo Laporte
Uh, as of january 1st, passed a child influencer law. Content creators who feature minors in at least 30 of their content must deposit 65 of the miners gross earnings into a trust account. But these, this was a law, the jackie coogan law. Remember back in the day, remember jackie coogan jeff. He was a hoot, he was a child star. You might not remember him in paris because it was in the 30s I was about to say you could be talking about a brontosaurus, for all I know she's calling us dinosaurs, jackie coogan, but he was, this was a nice pretty old child yeah, no, he was married to betty grable no later.

You know who? Betty grable is? No, of course she doesn't.

2:09:39 - Paris Martineau
He was in the charlie chaplin uh movie the kid, which was made him one of the first child stars in history every once in a while, when you guys say one of these names, I'm like, uh, they're talking about some charlie chaplin ass guy, and this time it is actually true look at him.

2:09:54 - Leo Laporte
Look at him, isn't he dorbs? Look at him. Who wouldn't fall in love with that? Put him. But it's trouble. But that's. In 1921 he got ripped off by his folks. California enacted the first legal protection for the earnings of child performers, widely known as the coogan act california's child actors bill. Be fun to drop that in. You know, I know. You know jackie coogan. You know why he was uncle fester in the adams family which one was that?

2:10:24 - Jeff Jarvis
again the old adam's family, I mean yeah, they kind of blend.

2:10:30 - Benito Gonzalez
Together I mean, I don't I'm pretty sure paris's reference to that, though, is the modern items family, I know no, I, I've watched the old adams family.

2:10:42 - Paris Martineau
Well, there you go.

2:10:43 - Leo Laporte
Don't really recall uncle fester like to me this guy like to be a monk's outfit oh yeah, that's not the same.

Coogan, as a kid, earned three million dollars, which is equivalent to 68 million dollars today. Uh, when he turned 21, his fortune believed to be well intact. But his assets uh were conservatively managed by his father, who died in a car accident five months earlier, who soon discovered nearly the entire amount had been squandered by his mother and stepfather, arthur bernstein, on fur coats, diamonds, other jewelry and expensive cars. Mom, mom, mom said no promises were ever made to give Jackie anything. He was a bad boy, seriously. She said that he sued them, but after legal expenses he got just $126,000. When he went broke during the litigation, he asked Charlie Chaplin for assistance. Charlie gave him $1,000 in cash without hesitation.

2:11:51 - Paris Martineau
I'm going to be honest, uncle Fester looks exactly like Marc Andreessen. He does.

2:11:58 - Leo Laporte
Actually, Marc Andreessen is more of a bullet head even.

2:12:01 - Paris Martineau
I mean yeah, but.

2:12:03 - Leo Laporte
Yes, Anyway. California does have a successor to the coogan law, the coogan act, which is for child influencers, which it should yeah, it should. Washington post has given all of its content to open ai.

2:12:14 - Jeff Jarvis
I thought it had done that a while ago this is a whole new deal where they're going to get promoted there. I don't know what they.

2:12:19 - Leo Laporte
I don't know who paid what for how on this uh, the post's essential journalism is now featured in chat, gbt search responses. By the way, it is the washington post that called its journalism essential. This is in the article from the washington post to which I no longer subscribe. Yeah, note the big resubscribe button on the top of my page.

2:12:43 - Jeff Jarvis
Uh have you seen the um the sync twins?

2:12:47 - Leo Laporte
no, who's? Who are they when they're at home?

2:12:49 - Jeff Jarvis
I hope we did mine. 117. I don't know can we play this or not uh, I'll be the judge of that.

2:12:58 - Leo Laporte
I have a strong instinct for content id yes yes, we never start play something and then benito jumps in and it's like stop, stop, stop, stop okay, you're the leaker it's called. Yeah, no, it's kimmel, can't play it. Nope, it's jimmy kimmel.

2:13:15 - Jeff Jarvis
He's notoriously litigious so there's these two, there's these twins, let me say two twins. There's these twins who and if they just say they talk simultaneously, maybe you can find a news clip. Can you find a news clip?

2:13:29 - Leo Laporte
with that. So pete hexeth slams leakers after text fallout. Oh no, that was a separate story. So these, these two, these two, oh, they're adults. Yes, yes, yes, and they just say the same thing all the same time, uh and and it's not an act, it's that's them, they, they. There was a and you complain about ai filling the internet with slop.

2:13:56 - Jeff Jarvis
I know this is amazing, it is absolutely amazing. I I watched it before kimmel and I said, oh my god, what's happening here? And that was kimball's reaction as well. If you, if you search on the what are they called the pelican twins? Search on, they're known in australia. They, they rescue pelicans. Oh, okay, um, all right, daily mail. Can you play daily mail?

2:14:17 - Leo Laporte
I could probably play the daily mail, let's see so just search pelican twins, here they are well it just happens and we don't know why, but we have tried to talk separately.

2:14:29 - PC
Oh, this is a it's not us and it's very hard.

2:14:32 - Harper Reed
They're not, they're barely speaking.

2:14:35 - Leo Laporte
I could do that, paris, go ahead, let's you and me, do that.

2:14:39 - Paris Martineau
Paris and I can talk, say the same thing at the same time especially if we pause carefully and we've kind of learned how we talk. Can we get?

2:14:50 - Leo Laporte
on kimmel with this, do you think?

2:14:52 - Paris Martineau
I think we could. I think, if we practice, okay, you know what could you.

2:14:55 - Leo Laporte
It's so, phony. I can't believe how, phony, that is jeff and you thought that was cool it's, I'm telling you and he was coming back down towards it there he goes, run, he's got a gun. All I was thinking about when, when we're no, it's so obvious they're taking cues from each other, jeff but they're, but that's what.

2:15:16 - Jeff Jarvis
That's what they do. Is they live? Yeah?

2:15:18 - Leo Laporte
because they got nothing else they got pelicans I have to interrupt this.

2:15:24 - Paris Martineau
Darren oakley in our discord made flappy jeff yay, I figured.

2:15:27 - Leo Laporte
Oh, darren is very accomplished, I must say flappy-jeffrepleatapp. I'm telling you no it's in um oh, I gotta play it you can actually play it in there.

2:15:40 - Paris Martineau
Wait, no, no, no, you're, you're, you're watching a video, leo I believe oh, how does the uh computer work?

2:15:49 - Leo Laporte
um wow, darren did that. He's very adept with this stuff, darren where's the? Game darren. Is there a way I can play it?

2:15:56 - Paris Martineau
it's in the link if you look up in the discord. Wow, I'm not good at it oh, there's a download, yeah no, that's the video.

2:16:05 - Leo Laporte
You got to keep going up no, it's further up hold on oh, it's up above okay here, I'll tag you.

2:16:11 - Paris Martineau
I just tagged you. Click the link that I just did.

2:16:13 - Leo Laporte
Grandpa, what what did you do what? What's this, jeff. Okay, navigate through stacks of books right click now. How did you do this, darren? Did you do it in python? What did you? Whoops, game over man game over.

2:16:28 - Paris Martineau
See, that's what was happening to my flappy jeff.

2:16:31 - Leo Laporte
But you've got a oh, it's hard, but this was always hard. Did you play the original?

2:16:37 - Paris Martineau
yeah, I did it's hard not easy. He said pure vibe coding, no actual coding.

2:16:45 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I really like this, this is fun I really like the way it's got jeff's head and everything yeah that's great.

2:16:51 - Jeff Jarvis
You'll forever be remembered, jeff yeah, I'm very proud, I'm very oh three.

2:16:58 - Paris Martineau
All right, I want to see who can get the highest score in flappy jeff by next week. Post it in the discord or add us on there.

2:17:06 - Leo Laporte
I got I gotta know more. So you, you did it. What did you do? Tell us all the tell us all the details. He says there was no actual coding, it was vibe coding. So it was just a prompt. Did the prompt? Who?

2:17:16 - Jeff Jarvis
was the prompt who was it?

2:17:17 - Leo Laporte
a claude or darren uses local uh llms as well. He did. He used replet to do it. Made the image in chat gpt, so the even the images were generated. Oh um, wow, out of sync got 72 seconds, a high square of 13 points.

Nice job, and replet hosts it as well yeah, replet is replet used to be the place you would go to learn how to code. It was, uh, it was repls for all the different coder code languages. But they saw the light early on and said you know, we should just, we should just make this a place you can do AI coding. And so, in fact, the CEO of replet is very famously said there's no, don't study coding. There's not going to be any more jobs in coding, which is a shame, because replet was a great place to learn how to code. I, a high school mentee, I set up at replit to learn, uh, python at the time. But because you didn't have to set it up on your own computer, you could do it in the web and so forth uh let's see I'm on a good run.

2:18:17 - Paris Martineau
Right now I'm on 16. I'm keep, I'm going, I'm going, I'm going completely.

2:18:22 - Leo Laporte
Well, let's take a break, while Paris masters Flappy.

2:18:25 - Paris Martineau
Jeff 19. I'm at 19.

2:18:27 - Leo Laporte
That's very good, you're getting out of sync.

2:18:29 - Jeff Jarvis
I know High score.

2:18:31 - Leo Laporte
Let's take a word from our sponsor. More to come.

2:18:35 - Paris Martineau
Our sponsor, Flappy Jeff. Brought to you by Flappy Jeff.

2:18:40 - Leo Laporte
No, it's actually brought to you by a perfectly appropriate sponsor for this particular segment our friends at out systems. What is that? It is the leading ai powered application and agent development platform. Now, they've been doing this for a long time, for more than 20 years. The mission of out systems is to give every company the power to innovate through software.

You know, it's always that build or buy decision. In fact, we this is where we made a mistake. I was talking about that sales system that we had an intern right. We probably shouldn't have built it ourselves. It's kind of janky, but on the other hand, we didn't want to buy it. They're very expensive and they wouldn't do exactly what they want.

In the past that was your choice. Buy off-the-shelf SaaS products. You know you'll get them up and running, but you lose flexibility and differentiation and, frankly, they cost a bundle. Or build custom software, but that's going to cost even more in time and resources. But ai has changed everything and, thanks to out systems, there's a third way the fusion of ai, low code and devsecops automation into one development platform. And, as I said, they've been doing this for 20 years. You know, for a long time with low-code or no-code, but now, with the addition of AI, you've really got something. Your teams are going to build custom applications just as easily as Darren just built that flappy Jeff. With AI agents it's as easy as buying generic off-the-shelf sameware, but it's flexible.

By the way, and OutSystems is really good about this, security and scalability are built in Because they know you're building enterprise apps. Here. With AI-powered, low-code teams can build custom, future-proof applications at the speed of buying. With fully automated architecture, you get security built in. You get integrations, data flows, permissions the whole stack. It's all there for you. Frankly, outsystems is the last platform you need to buy because you can use it to build anything and customize and extend your core systems. Frankly, we should have gone without systems. You build your future without systems Right now. Visit outsystemscom slash twit to learn more. That's outsystemscom slash twit. Build custom apps and agents faster. This is brilliant. Finally, a third answer to that build or buy question Outsystemscom slash twit. We thank them so much for supporting intelligent machines. It's an exciting time. I think we're living an exciting time. How's your flappy jeff?

2:21:16 - Paris Martineau
I, I've really developed. I had like three different runs where I got zero points. Yeah it's flappy, where it was always really hard but remember it depends on how the level ends up being generated, because sometimes it's very hard and sometimes it's ah, it's a randomly generated I'm having a senior moment.

2:21:36 - Jeff Jarvis
What was the angry birds, right?

2:21:39 - Leo Laporte
yeah, this is not that happy bird was created by a vietnamese kid some years ago and it was a massive hit on ios, so much so. And he made so much and he didn't charge for it. It was free but he had ads in it. He was making so much money he freaked out and he pulled it like weeks in.

2:21:58 - Jeff Jarvis
He said I can't take a communist, I can't do this.

2:22:01 - Leo Laporte
It just it bugged him that people were were, you know, so addicted to it. It's really great. It's actually a really great story, um, and now, of course, ai can easily build it, because it didn't take long before a lot of people created Flappy Bird clones and so forth. Once he pulled it off the market, people were free to do that. There's a good article from Wired the Rise and Fall get it Of Flappy.

2:22:26 - Paris Martineau
Bird and Rise Again. Yeah, and Rise Again.

2:22:29 - Leo Laporte
Dong Wen uploaded a game in May this was back in uh 2014 uploaded a new game to the ios app store uh, one of hundreds new apps added to this app store every day. Win had created a simple game which the player controls a funny looking bird by tapping the screen. It needed simple name. He called it flap flap. Then he realized another app had the name, so it's so easy to rename it. He did it on the app store and called it flap flap. Then he realized another app had the name, so it's so easy to rename it. He did it on the app store and called it flappy bird.

Perhaps you've heard of it win's game. He millions of people were downloading flappy bird at its peak. Win was taking in fifty thousand dollars a day from the ads. But he was also under and this is, I think, maybe what really happened a constant barrage, according to Wired, of messages, insults, requests for interviews, even death threats. Wynn decided last weekend after just a few weeks. It wasn't for him. He stopped talking to anybody, pulled Flappy Bird from the App Store and that was that.

2:23:27 - Jeff Jarvis
Wonder where he is today, that's a great question.

2:23:36 - Benito Gonzalez
That's a really interesting question. Last we heard from him he was railing against the, the crypto company that bought that flappy bird ip, or something yeah poor kid the current uh, he was a teenager of flappy.

2:23:50 - Paris Martineau
Je, jeff, is P-Hall on Discord, of course, paul 33 points.

2:23:54 - Leo Laporte
I'm not surprised, paul Holder, he's a genius.

2:23:57 - Paris Martineau
He's amazing how far 33 points.

2:24:01 - Jeff Jarvis
Paul get a life.

2:24:03 - Leo Laporte
We have really recreated Flappy Bird. There are, of course, many places you can play Flappy Bird online, like flappybirdgg. This is a pretty close clone of the original. Just tap the screen, oops.

2:24:20 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, but it doesn't have a. It doesn't have a Jeff, a disgruntled professor. Yeah.

2:24:27 - Leo Laporte
I love that. I think what a that's. There you go. In a nutshell, that's what's changing in the world.

2:24:32 - Jeff Jarvis
it's not twins pretending to talk how long did it take you to make it?

2:24:38 - Leo Laporte
uh, well, it could have been more than 15 minutes.

2:24:41 - Jeff Jarvis
He came up with that one, was it that time on a time chase?

2:24:45 - Leo Laporte
darren's very good at this. By the way, darren does partner coding, pair coding with ai. He does a lot of vibe coding. That's what he does. That's he's. He's been selling that. You know he's one of the guys who does the advent of code with us. He's very he's a really proficient coder. He and p hall paul holder are our two I think our two top cold coders in the uh club. Wow. But darren has gone all in on an ai. He does it professionally. He does it for work. Where do you work, darren, can you say? Is that a secret? He's mentioned it before. He does a very complicated kind of coding, as I remember.

2:25:22 - Paris Martineau
No, I assumed it was you know kind of flappy bird or bust.

2:25:25 - Leo Laporte
but I don't think he writes games.

2:25:30 - Paris Martineau
Wow, a man of leisure.

2:25:32 - Leo Laporte
He's out of work. Well, well, I think he works contract. He's, by the way, I'm pretty convinced, a 10x, one of those 10x coders that they talk about. You know these guys who are so good. They bring them in to solve intractable problems and get paid a lot of money. I'm pretty sure you're a 10x coder, darren. Pretty sure he's down under.

2:25:48 - Jeff Jarvis
It's from Australia, oh what time is it down there?

2:25:52 - Leo Laporte
oh, it's a normal time. I know that because windows weekly was hosted by richard campbell in sydney, wow, and he joined us at 4 am, which is 11 am our time. So it'sa it's a normal midday now by now it's 9 50 am.

2:26:05 - Jeff Jarvis
Yeah I did twig from sydney once yes, I remember I had the wi-fi, the internet was horrible. I had to buy a new phone to try to do it. I walked along the waterfront.

2:26:17 - Paris Martineau
I tortured you, as usual you did the show while walking along the waterfront, because the hotel wi-fi was terrible and the cell connection was bad. I bought a separate cell thing and he's famously isn't recording audio near bodies of water like the worst place to record it pretty much.

2:26:40 - Leo Laporte
Hey, good news according to the bbc, films that are made with ai can win oscars. It's, it's official now, uh. The academy of motion picture arts and sciences issued new rules on monday which said the use of ai and other digital tools would, quote, neither help nor harm the chances of achieving a nomination. They can't speak for the voters, though. Remember, uh, adrian brody's fantastic film, the brutalist, I think, lost the best picture os Oscar because it came out that they had used AI to help them with the Hungarian accents. I mean the most minor use of AI you can imagine, uh, but the? But see, the industry doesn't like it. They're terrified. It was a weird movie. Oh, I loved it, did you not like it? No, I watched, did you?

think did you think Onora was the best picture of the year? I?

2:27:32 - Jeff Jarvis
didn't watch that either. I don't watch movies anymore.

2:27:35 - Leo Laporte
Not terrible. It was a fine movie, but not the best picture of the year. It wasn't terrible, sorry. All right, I think we should break and when we come back, guess who has a pick of the week for us. Y'all do Picks of the week coming up with Paris Martineau.

Jeff Jarvis, I'm going to take a little moment, just a quick moment, to say I would love you to join Club Twit. I didn't realize this. We just crossed four years. Patrick Delahannery told me the anniversary of Club Twit was. I know I thought it was much younger than that.

Four years ago, lisa, my brilliant wife, had the brilliant notion of you know, the audience is the most important part of this whole enterprise. We should let them join the club and and and support what we're doing so we are less dependent on advertisers. It was a lucky thing she did. This was during the height of covid, of course, so advertising was scant and it's gone up and down and honestly I think it's. I don't want to jinx us, but I have a feeling that there is a little bit of economic trouble ahead and it might in fact be a little troubling for us. But that's where you come in. Even today, advertising doesn't pay all of our costs.

With the help of our club twit members, though, we can do the shows we do and bring in new shows all the time. When you pay seven dollars a month, that's all you get. Un you know ad-free versions of all the shows that we do. You get access to our club discord and the events that go on in there, like, as I mentioned, the ai user group. This friday.

We do recordings of shows in their photo time with chris marquart it's coming up may 2nd of shows in there. Photo time with chris marquart it's coming up may 2nd. Uh, micah's crafting corner may 16th and stacy's book club that that afternoon. But I have to tell you we have moved also our keynote coverage into the club. We got tired of the takedown notices from apple, so we're just going to stream it in the club. If you remember the a member of the club, you can watch us as we cover the Microsoft Build Keynote, the Google IO Keynote. Jeff, I hope you'll join me for that. We're going to do in between a special GizWiz show. Paris, join me too if you would like.

2:29:42 - Paris Martineau
That Google.

2:29:43 - Leo Laporte
IO Keynote is, let's see, tuesday, may 20th, 10 am. We're 20th, 10 am. Uh, we're going to also cover the worldwide developers conference. In fact, now that we're doing it in the club, where mike and I are going to stick around for the whole day, we'll get not only the apple keynote in the morning, we'll get the state of the union keynote in the afternoon. So all of this is, you know, by way of thanking you for supporting us. We want to make your seven dollars go a long way and I think that's a pretty good deal $7 a month, $84 a year, ad. Free versions of all our shows, access to our club to a discord where many of the club members hang. It's a great hangout. Special events that go on only in the club. I don't think any podcast network offers more for less. Please join the club. Twittv slash club twit and thanks in advance.

2:30:36 - Jeff Jarvis
Wow, out of sync is now up to 98 on flappy jeff whoa 98 98, that's the number to beat people and, by the way, paris's week is going to be lost another.

2:30:49 - Leo Laporte
Another benefit of Club Twit access to great games like Flappy Jeff.

2:30:55 - Paris Martineau
That's true.

2:30:56 - Leo Laporte
That's true, that's true. Paris pick of the week.

2:31:01 - Paris Martineau
All right, my pick of the week is something I came across called the I'm probably going to mispronounce this the Wellikia Project, which aims to illustrate the rich ecological history that underwrites the development of New York City. And how you do this is you enter in an address, so, for instance, let's do 555, I'm not going to dox myself, I'm just going to use a random address, 555 Fulton Street in New York, new York and it takes you there and tells you what it looked like long ago. And it takes you there and tells you what it looked like long ago. This used to be an oak tulip tree forest community, home to plants like starved panic grass, prairie fleabane and whitewood aster, and animals like the meadow vole and broad-winged hawk. This block was the suitable habitat for over 199 species of plants.

2:31:49 - Leo Laporte
And then the asters move in, and that's all that was left.

2:31:54 - Paris Martineau
Wow, and so you zoom in so zoom in find out.

2:31:55 - Leo Laporte
This is what it looked like back in the priest now. Can I say uh, later, like 100 years later, or I don't think so.

2:32:02 - Paris Martineau
It's just. It's just ancient time here's what grand central looks like if you then go click in over on the left hand panel, you can figure out what the plants were. Animals were prints, since on that part of fault you're just talking about um, it was likely used by the lenape people, in part because the block was 135 feet from the nearest lenape trail and a thousand feet from the nearest lenape campsite new yankee stadium.

2:32:29 - Leo Laporte
Wow, the stamina. Go around all of it.

2:32:32 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, it's kind of kind of depressing, actually, battery park they got some parts of new jersey in there too, jeff, if you're interested more woods.

2:32:43 - Jeff Jarvis
Oh, it was kind of pretty yeah I like watching movies about new york right because of this.

2:32:49 - Leo Laporte
I mean in new york. The history of new york is really quite fascinating.

2:32:55 - Paris Martineau
Yeah, I mean it's just a very interesting tool to look into, like what used to be here. The other thing I wanted to show that's before robert moses, though.

2:33:01 - Jeff Jarvis
Right, I mean, yeah, let me just mention, while we're on here, one more second russell shorto's new book. Have I plugged it? It's one?

2:33:07 - Leo Laporte
yes, you have, because I I mentioned that I I loved the book he wrote called the Island at the Center of the World, and now he has an updated.

2:33:15 - Jeff Jarvis
Taking Manhattan. It's wonderful, taking Manhattan.

2:33:17 - Leo Laporte
I will read it because I loved the Island at the Center of the World.

2:33:21 - Jeff Jarvis
It's about the Dutch time in New York and how the English took it over without any shots being fired, but how the Dutch culture prevailed in our diversity.

2:33:32 - Benito Gonzalez
That's really good. There's a larger book there called the. Seven Nations of America, about all the cultures that actually make up America. There's technically about seven cultures that make America.

2:33:43 - Leo Laporte
Native American cultures. No, no, no, I'm talking about post-Native American.

2:33:47 - Benito Gonzalez
Oh, our cultures. Yeah yeah, yeah, ah, only seven. Yeah, how the Dutch are in New York, stuff like that. It our cultures. Yeah, yeah, ah, so like only seven. Yeah, you know how like the dutch are like in new york, stuff like that. It's like how, and it's interesting, you know, and things like that I.

2:33:58 - Leo Laporte
I was a while ago after finishing um the power broker. How are you doing on that jeff, by the way?

2:34:05 - Jeff Jarvis
I'm about two-thirds of the way through. It's riveting it's riveting.

2:34:09 - Leo Laporte
It is really well written. Yeah, you would think, a book that long and that detailed, you'd get bored. And it's riveting. It's riveting, it is really well written. Yeah, you would think, a book that long and that detailed, you'd get bored, it's fascinating how obviously he knew what he thought of the guy by the end.

2:34:18 - Jeff Jarvis
But you just see, he develops a city to it oh it develops. It's so beautiful he just becomes in such a this.

2:34:24 - Leo Laporte
The section about his brother is just heartbreaking uh, yeah, there's a lot of heartbreak in that uh story. I uh, I've been looking for a good history of New York. There is one two-volume set by Mike Wallace and Edwin Burroughs called Gotham, and I think the follow-up to it. What's the?

2:34:41 - Paris Martineau
name? Oh, I've heard Gotham is supposed to be pretty good.

2:34:43 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I kind of want to read it.

2:34:46 - Paris Martineau
I had some friends that did a book club where the theme was obnoxiously long books and Gotham was in it.

2:34:52 - Leo Laporte
A book club where the theme was obnoxiously long books, and gotham was in it, it's definitely so it's the history up to 1898 and then the sequel is greater gotham 1898 to 1919.

2:35:03 - Paris Martineau
I do think that's a good naming, uh custom for sequels is you?

2:35:05 - Leo Laporte
just add greater to whatever the and then the greater greater gotham greatest, gotham, the greater, greatest. I like it.

2:35:13 - Paris Martineau
No, no books can have.

2:35:14 - Leo Laporte
it can be anything more than a trillion, but I but I thought the power broker, the Robert Moses uh stories just so gripping and really does cover kind of most of the 19th uh or the 20th century in New York, cause he really was so important from the twenties right up to the 70s.

2:35:36 - Paris Martineau
Um, taking that and I will read that, thank you. My last, uh brief shout out for a pick because I don't think we can play. The song is 18 years ago today, tazon day, uploaded chocolate rain, chocolate rain some say dry and dry another's field of pain.

2:35:50 - Leo Laporte
You were like eight years old when that came out.

2:35:52 - Paris Martineau
You remember it yeah, I was, I could totally play it, but I remember it. Oh, we can okay. Oh sure, I don't know.

2:35:59 - Leo Laporte
I guess we can die with the free mp3 creative comments rain, some things feel the pain so there are a few reasons this caught on One he looks like he's eight and he has this big voice, the other one is he leans away from the mic to take a breath and then calls it out by doing on-screen asterisk, asterisk.

2:36:23 - Paris Martineau
I lean away from the mic to take a breath. And that phrase has been stuck in my head for 18 years. And chocolate rain.

2:36:32 - All
The school books say that they hear it as chocolate rain.

2:36:37 - Chocolate Rain
The prisons make you wonder where he actually got a lot of mileage.

2:36:41 - Leo Laporte
It's also Stavok. Taysom Day is still kind of around the world is dry chocolate rain Rain. Zoom the camera out and see the light chocolate rain. He knew what he was doing. He knew what he was doing when he created that classic chocolate rain. I love the thumbnail that no, no, your meme uses of him leaning away from the microphone I mean, it's true, that's what he does? Uh, I wonder. So let's see what's going on what is he up to today?

his real name is Adam Nyerere Bonner, but he called himself Taze on Day. He was a grad student when he recorded it. Oh, 2007, from Minneapolis. Um, what did he study? Oh, that's a good question. Chocolate Rain made it to YouTube's front page just early on in YouTube right and 4chan showcased Chocolate Rain all over the page. So give 4chan a little credit as well. He started a number of commercials, including one for Comedy Central's Last Laugh and a cherry Chocolate Rain ad for Dr Pepper.

2:37:54 - Paris Martineau
Oh, good In.

2:37:58 - Leo Laporte
February 2010,. He was in a Vizio Super Bowl commercial with Beyonce Jeez. He appeared in Weezer's Pork and Beans music video, performed with Stephen Colbert at an autism charity event in 2010. He has received some work as a voice actor, was hired by NASA to voice part of their presentation celebrating 50 years of NASA history. He was voice acted in Robot Chicken in a Chocolate Rain spoof episode.

2:38:27 - Paris Martineau
Okay, cool.

2:38:29 - Leo Laporte
So there's many parodies, including this one by Chad Vader. He's short. All right, this is when the internet was not full of crap. Right, yeah, this was the early YouTube days.

2:38:51 - Paris Martineau
Two years into YouTube.

2:38:54 - Benito Gonzalez
We didn't know how much work they had to do to do that. That's a lot of work in 2007 yeah, you're right, it wasn't easy.

2:38:59 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, you're right here's cherry chocolate oh, I got too many videos going. I gotta stop. I was gonna say it's crazy chad vader's still singing Sorry To the Z. This is the win. And it's gonna murder your TV.

2:39:17 - Jeff Jarvis
I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's.

2:39:19 - Paris Martineau
I think that's a good way to.

2:39:21 - Leo Laporte
Thank you for bringing back Tay. Zonday, Chuck, let's rain. Some stay dry weather. There's feel the pain.

2:39:31 - Jeff Jarvis
Mr Jeff Jarvis, a pick for you so last two weeks ago, as you know, I went to salem oregon to testify against senate bill 686, which I think is crap, because it just tries to hold up technology companies for newspaper companies, oh obvious I submitted my testimony uh, in writing, and I gotta say somebody else did a better job than me. I'm mr morris.

2:39:52 - Leo Laporte
Testimony uh, in writing. And I gotta say somebody else did a better job than me.

2:39:55 - Jeff Jarvis
I'm mr morris dear committee members, was this a comment that somebody posted?

2:39:59 - Leo Laporte
yes, it's actually posted to the comments on the legislation from samuel morris, on behalf of telegraph operators of america.

Dear committee members, as inventor of the telegraph, I am in strong support of sp 686. Many, many years ago my invention became obsolete when new and more efficient means of communication were developed. Suddenly, all my hard work was for nothing. People no longer had to slowly tap out messages and dashes and dots and then hand deliver those messages to people miles away on horseback. Frankly, I lost my shirt. If the opportunity had risen for me to get a bundle of cash from those creeps who invented the telephone and the fax mail machine and email don't even get me started I would have grabbed it in a second. Be sure to get a pile of money from those pesky internet jerks to prop up the local newspapers and, while you're at it, consider taxing offset presses. Those things near it.

2:40:52 - Paris Martineau
Really screwed over gutenberg I just love this oh wow, a man after your own heart, yes, is that a great?

2:40:58 - Jeff Jarvis
comment. Some thought it was me, but it wasn't. I wish it were, I should.

2:41:02 - Leo Laporte
It's brilliant it's almost as good as larry david's set up of uh bill maher oh my god did you see what the, the the New York Times then did?

2:41:14 - Jeff Jarvis
no, the deputy opinion editor then has to write a separate column explaining the joke number one, which you'd never do and number two saying, oh, he wasn't comparing Trump to Hitler oh, that's not he was.

2:41:26 - Leo Laporte
It wasn't the point, it was. You know, god, I want I. I don't watch Bill Maher. My wife loves Bill Maher, so I heard it in the background oh no, him saying you know, there's too much hate in the world. So I went and had dinner with Donald Trump and Kid Rock at the White House, and he was a very courteous fellow, and so Larry David did a brilliant job, I think, of puncturing that.

2:41:51 - Jeff Jarvis
The best piece that people, many people, have admired it is. This is the tan suit. Hitler came in wearing a timber in his tan suit it's.

2:42:01 - Leo Laporte
It's actually good on you, lair, was it? It was it in the new york times? Yes, the new york times? Yes, yeah, amazing, yeah, uh, it's a shame they felt like they had to uh explain what it all?

2:42:10 - Jeff Jarvis
oh, it's just so pedantic and we don't normally do satire.

2:42:16 - Leo Laporte
And if the satire is about this, that we're careful. Larry, next time go to the New Yorker, please. They'll understand it better there.

2:42:21 - Jeff Jarvis
Well, he got more attention, I think from the New York Times, which is good.

2:42:24 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, it was brilliant and I was just glad to see it because I had the same exact visceral reaction I did too I couldn't watch it.

2:42:31 - Jeff Jarvis
I watched the beginning of of that segment and I just said no, not gonna do it, can't do it it's my problem with bill maher in general but I will be curious this friday whether bill maher responds. Oh, he will, you know he has to.

2:42:42 - Paris Martineau
He has to. Oh, he loved it, he loved it. I'm being silent because, as someone under the age of 50, I have no opinions on bill maher is he really for old folks paris, he would have opinions about you. Oh, he does, he has a lot of people have opinions about me, doesn't? Have to have opinions about them in the words of my calculator you can't see it.

2:43:04 - Leo Laporte
Oh, oh, don't panic, there we go panic let's burn another one, guys, come on, bring back the sticker peel, peel it off, all right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. Wait a minute. I have pictures of my son going to dinner with Martha Stewart. Oh Well, wait a minute.

2:43:27 - Jeff Jarvis
Did you ask him about the Tesla?

2:43:30 - Paris Martineau
You should ask him to ask Martha about about the tesla idea. Would she want to take a crack to support?

2:43:36 - Leo Laporte
apparently he said, I decided to wear a cardigan to meet martha.

2:43:40 - Paris Martineau
There's no martha in there in that photo.

2:43:43 - Leo Laporte
Well, there will be.

2:43:44 - Paris Martineau
This is he's going to the okay cardigan is the right move is it right?

2:43:49 - Leo Laporte
it's the right thing to wear a cardigan on the way to martha the mustache is quite dashing.

2:43:53 - Jeff Jarvis
Oh, I know he's got, you know he's stuck with it.

2:43:55 - Leo Laporte
Now he cannot ever shave. It's his trademark. He's like chef boyardee, he's just, he's stuck with it. Ladies and gentlemen, uh, thank you so much for uh putting up with us for the last couple of hours. Thanks to harper reed, our special guest harper was delightful.

2:44:11 - Jeff Jarvis
It was great isn't?

2:44:11 - Paris Martineau
he great he's just a character. He was fantastic great energy some people can't pull off character.

2:44:19 - Jeff Jarvis
They try too hard.

2:44:20 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, he just is yeah, he's like a nice shingy which no one understands what I just said.

2:44:30 - Jeff Jarvis
I got it, but just show a picture of shiggy. Come on, you got to show.

2:44:33 - Leo Laporte
Jeff jarvis is professor of journalism is shinky, still at aol.

2:44:37 - Jeff Jarvis
He was at a well no, no, he got the boost booted a long time ago he was aol's uh digital prophet oh, he is reverse shinky yeah, yeah, people couldn't stand shiggy. I bet he was. He was very nice I'm sure he's nice. It's just doing the hair like that it's that embarrassing moment where I, you know I have said funny things about him and I didn't know if he knew it. He didn't know what.

That's good, yeah, but I was also living at columbia on friday and the head of the times editorial page was there and she was a little, uh, frosty, oh she knew that you thought it was the what do you call it?

2:45:12 - Leo Laporte
the broken time broken times hashtag broken times. Uh, if I could you know what shingy. I'm just jealous. If I could do that with my hair, I would yeah you should grow your hair out, leo.

2:45:24 - Paris Martineau
What is she doing now?

2:45:27 - Leo Laporte
I just got a haircut and you're telling me to grow it out now just Just saying Could be, I don't know.

2:45:31 - Paris Martineau
I think it's now my trademark.

2:45:32 - Leo Laporte
Much like Saul Hanks' mustache, I think I have to have perfect hair, oh God you got to go Sheen.

2:45:38 - Paris Martineau
What if you had perfect hair that was shoulder length? You could do the-.

2:45:42 - Leo Laporte
I would love to have long hair. I would love to Look what happened to your dad. They, I will say it's changed his whole vibe. People think he's a celebrity now just because he has long hair. It does do something.

2:45:59 - Paris Martineau
I mean, Howard Stern is just a schlub without the long hair. With long hair, he looks like a rock star.

2:46:02 - Jeff Jarvis
You got to go to shingycom. Oh, he's still around. Oh yeah, he's still selling.

2:46:08 - Leo Laporte
Got to be selling, still selling, the shingy Artist, globe-trotting speaker and market seeker.

2:46:15 - Jeff Jarvis
He is a storyteller who identifies emerging trends and inspires clients to think differently.

2:46:19 - Paris Martineau
Every scroll down made me laugh in a different way. The prayer hands Oof what the heck do you do?

2:46:33 - Jeff Jarvis
He's a renowned speaker. This is like a satire of a guy.

2:46:39 - PC
Brilliant David Shea at the table, so let's get on with it. We are the connected generation. Consumers are way smarter than we think they are. I wish I had had the presence of mind to have a trademark.

2:46:49 - Leo Laporte
That's the key. That's the key. That's why you got to have a trademark. You know, that's the key. That's the key. That's why you got to have a mustache.

2:46:55 - Paris Martineau
Now, that's an ideas guy, that's it.

2:46:58 - Leo Laporte
That's a guy with ideas. He's got ideas, you can tell.

2:47:01 - Paris Martineau
They're flowing out of his head. They can't be contained.

2:47:06 - Jeff Jarvis
The official title is he is a creative omnivore and visionary futurist.

2:47:11 - Leo Laporte
And he spits up whatever he eats. So you can enjoy the regurgitation of his brilliant he's a master baby bird.

2:47:24 - Jeff Jarvis
Shiggy's boundless creativity and design mastery establish him as a preeminent authority in crafting iconic identities. His razor-sharp instinct, visual artistry and verbal eloquence make him an indispensable advisor.

2:47:39 - Leo Laporte
Hey, it works for him. I'm not going to judge Anyway.

2:47:41 - Paris Martineau
I'm not going to judge. I'm sure a lot of this is true, but if. I ever had a website describing my own verbal elegance. Using the words verbal elegance, I would hope that someone puts me into pasture but you know, this is why we need to promote ourselves more.

2:47:57 - Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, to be more out. He's got it. Where are we doing?

2:48:00 - Paris Martineau
yeah, we're just sitting here doing podcasts. He's clearly got it and we don't we're in our houses doing my hair is flat yeah, you know, we didn't knock it.

2:48:11 - Leo Laporte
jeff jarvis, I'll tell you who he is, professor of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism.

2:48:20 - Jeff Jarvis
Don't rush it.

2:48:22 - Leo Laporte
At the City University of New York I try to rush it every single time he is now at Montclair State University in New Jersey and also at SUNY Stony Brook in New York State. Author of the Web, we Weave the Gutenberg Parenthesis now in paperback magazine and more, and he is a beloved figure on the international stage, jeffjarviscom. Thank you, jeff. Thank you, paris.

2:48:45 - Paris Martineau
Martineau has a shorter CV. I'm a creative omnivore.

2:48:48 - Leo Laporte
She is a creative omnivore Ready to suck up all the information you've got if you've got a tip email. You said tips at parisnyc. Is that what?

2:48:58 - Paris Martineau
you? Yeah, that's true, you just spit at us. No, I sucked up.

2:49:02 - Leo Laporte
I sucked up all the information okay that's me. Yes, on the signal martino.01. Give her some good tips. You know what this is the thing right now. This is your opportunity to write the book that blows the lid off x, whatever that x might be the, not xcom not that, x, no, no, no different x the n I'll say n the it's not the thing.

2:49:29 - Paris Martineau
Whatever the thing is blank. The blank.

2:49:32 - Leo Laporte
Fill in the blank, we'll figure it out. Thank you, paris. Thank you jeff. Thank you to our very long-suffering audience and crew. We're glad you made it to the end. They had to, you didn't, so pat yourself on the back. We do, uh, this week in intelligent machines. No, we didn't decide not to call it that because it would be twin.

2:49:56 - Paris Martineau
We do twin we love to go twimming every week with you we're going to swimming.

2:50:06 - Leo Laporte
No, it's just intelligent machines. We just truncate it, make it easy, it's in it. It's wacky week. It was a real little punchy today. We do it every wednesday right after windows, weekly 2 pm pacific, 5 pm eastern 2100 utc. We always kick it off with a great guest. Uh, and then stories about I am intelligent machines, and I hope you will come back and enjoy the fun and festivities next week. You can watch us live if you're in the club on Discord, but everyone else can watch live on YouTube, twitch, tiktok, xcom, facebook, linkedin and Kik. After the fact, on-demand versions of the show available at twittv. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to Intelligent Machines, and you can also subscribe in your favorite podcast client. Get it automatically the minute it's available. If you do that, though, please leave us a five-star review on there, because it helps spread the word about the hottest new show on the internet. Thank you everybody. We'll see you next time on Intelligent Machines. Now peel me off.